latin vibe

[hi_lighter]

are there any scales or chords that really give off that latin Santana vibe?

[skapsycho88]

well i know that santana uses the minor scale in eroupa. so maybe try that. minor scale, not minor penatonic.

[unfy]

Try all forms of Minor. Everything from Natural, to Harmonic, to Melodic.

[wild_axeman]

Santana uses Dorian alot!

[luecke]

i think you will find that a lot of the latin feel comes from the drums and bass. percussion is very important to that style of music... but on top of that, you might want to check out the phrygian mode. the flat 2 gives it a very spanish bullfight sort of sound

[wild_axeman]

Dorian
Phrygian
Aeolian
Harmonic Minor
Phrygian Dominant (5th mode of Harmonic Minor a.k.a. "Spanish Phrygian")
Spanish 8-Tone (regular Phrygian with an added Major 3rd)

[hi_lighter]

Phrygian Dominant (5th mode of Harmonic Minor a.k.a. "Spanish Phrygian") Spanish 8-Tone (regular Phrygian with an added Major 3rd)
where could i get a diagram of these scales?

[wild_axeman]

If you start Harmonic Minor from it's 5th then that's Phrygian Dominant (a.k.a "Spanish Phrygian").

If you combine Natural Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 and
Harmonic Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 the only note that's different is the 7th step.In Natural Minor you have a minor 7th and in Harmonic Minor you have a Major 7th so if you combine these two you get an 8 note scale with both types of seventh 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 7 which Yngwie uses quite a bit.Now if you start on the 5th of this scale you get the Spanish 8-tone scale!

The Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 and Phrygian Dominant 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
are the same except for the third which is minor in Phrygian and Major in Phrygian Dominant.So combining the two results in the Spanish 8-tone scale 1 b2 b3 3 4 5 b6 b7


B Phrygian Dominant (1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7)

E:------------------------------------7-8-
B:-----------------------------7-8-10-----
G:------------------------8-9-------------
D:----------------7-9-10------------------
A:------6-7-9-10--------------------------
E:-7-8------------------------------------




B Spanish 8-tone Scale (1 b2 b3 3 4 5 b6 b7)

E:------------------------------------------7-8-
B:----------------------------------7-8-10------
G:---------------------------7-8-9--------------
D:--------------------7-9-10--------------------
A:------------7-9-10----------------------------
E:-7-8-10-11------------------------------------
Combined scales like the Spanish 8-tone are called "hybrid scales".

[bills]

Luceke makes a good point most of the feel will come from the bass and drums I'd like to say try and analyze the melody for it's rythmic value. I'd like to also say, having a good theory background the 5 th mode in Harmonic Minor is not named Dominant Phrygian, the scale is spelled right of course, but the name for the scale is Harmonic Dominant. the reason for this is Harmonic Dominant is a dominant scale and is derived from Harmonic minor, hence the name. Phrygian is a minor scale and is derived from major. Calling the scale Dominant Phrygian would imply its a minor dominant scale. the scale can't be both.

[bills]

Sorry, me again. 3 scales that I think are very cool are
Lydian b7,Altered Dominant, and Melodic Dominant. These scales are derived from the Melodic Minor scale (1,2,b3,4,5,6,7). If you start on the 4th scale degree you get Lydian b7. If you start on the 7th you get Altered Dominant. And If you start on the 5th scale u get Melodic Dominant (some people will call this scale Aeolin Dominant, it's not correct, but the world won't come crashing down if you call it that)

[wild_axeman]

Melodic Dominant (some people will call this scale Aeolin Dominant, it's not correct, but the world won't come crashing down if you call it that)
It's called Aeolian Dominant because it is identical to Aeolian except for the 3rd which is major instead of the minor 3rd in Aeolian.

Dominant is accurate as it contains both a major 3rd and a minor 7th.

Some people call it Mixolydian b6 because it is identical to Mixolydian but with a minor 6th instead of a major 6th.

It's also called "the Hindu scale"...

I've heard Joe Satriani refer to it as both "Aeolian Dominant" and as "the Hindu scale".

Scales often have several different names.You can even name them yourself.You can name a scale "Larry" if you want to.But if you want people to adopt your scale's name then it has to be more logical than "Larry".:p "Larry" would have to be your own little secret pet name for a scale.

[unfy]

I like to call the pentatonics the Asian Sensation.

[bills]

I think it's cool were having this aurgument ( I love talking scales!!) I totally see what you are saying with Aeolian Dominant however, the aeolian scale is a minor scale because of the b3: there is no major 3. Dominant scales on the other hand have , as you said, have a Major 3 and b7 and that's what Aeolian Dominant has. For a scale to qualify as minor it has to have a b3 and b7: this scale does not it can only be dominant or minor not both. there are scales however that are minor and Dominant: Symentrical Dominant for example ( C Db Eb E F# G A Bb) the foumula is semitone, tone, semitone, tone etc. hence symentrical. If you spell out a chord off the root you will get C minor 7, C7,C7b5, C minor 7 b5, C diminished (C Eb Gb(F#) A (bb7)) this implies that the scales is Dominant, half-Diminished, Diminished, and minor.

You are right about calling SOME scales what ever you want the scales that you could name yourself would be Exotic Scales howverver, they told me this in my music history class the modes can't be obstructed (ex. Mixolydian can't be called Ionian b7) something to do with the fact that all the modes of the major scale are named after all the provinces in Greece: I guess that's where Gegorian Chants came from, Gegorian Chant music was the first music.

See ya

[wild_axeman]

Aeolian is minor (has a minor 3rd) but Aeolian Dominant is major (has a major 3rd)...it's the same scale as Aeolian but with a natural 3rd so you could also call it Aeolian Natural 3rd scale (can't get the natural symbol but Aeolian #3 works)

Phrygian is minor (has a minor 3rd) but Phrygian Dominant is major (has a major 3rd)...it's the same scale as Phrygian with a raised 3rd (Phrygian #3 or Phrygian Nat.3 are both viable names for this scale)

[toast]

Originally posted by bills
all the modes of the major scale are named after all the provinces in Greece: I guess that's where Gegorian Chants came from, Gegorian Chant music was the first music.I learned (off these boards of course :D) that the modes are named after Greek Islands, and it was used for the Church since the Church came up with music.

[bills]

the Phrygian Dom. scale is not Major because to qualify as a major scale the scale has to have a Major 3 AND a Major 7 not a b7. another Major scale, other than Ionian, would be Lydian or Haronic Major ( 1,2,3,4,5,b6,7)

Toast u could be right about the modes being named after the Greek Islands (I'm not great with the history) In classical Theory their called Church Modes.

before people go to music school they often get Jazz theory and Classical mixed up ( I know I did) the reason I think is because we are bombarded With Motzart and Tchaikovsky so we buy classical theory books but when our parents put us in lessons it's with a Jazz teacher, of course they don't know better how could they there not musicians, and you would most likley hard pressed to find Jazz theory publication at music stores.

[wild_axeman]

A scale merely has to have a Major third to qualify as Major.
Mixolydian yields a "Major" triad as do all Dominant Scales that yield an unaltered V7 chord.

A Major Scale with a minor seventh is a "Dominant Scale" because it will yield a Dominant "7th" chord,which just means it's a Major chord with a b7 which wants to resolve up a 4th or down a 5th and therefore has a Dominant function.

Ionian,Lydian and Mixolydian are all "Major" modes but Mixolydian is the only one of the three that is also Dominant because it is built on the Dominant "5th step" of the Major scale and yields a Dominant "7th chord".But the Major triad built on the Dominant 5th step will also resolve to the tonic just not as strongly as the V7 chord will.Phrygian Dominant is also built on the Dominant 5th step of Harmonic minor.Aeolian Dominant is built on the Dominant "5th step" of Melodic minor."Mixolydian,Mixolydian b6(Aeolian Dominant),and Phrygian Dominant are all "Major" scales with a "Dominant" function.

Locrian is a minor mode.It has a minor 3rd so it's minor.You get a diminished triad and a half-diminished 7th (m7b5) from Locrian but it's still a minor mode.It's not a "diminished" scale because it only yields a half-diminished 7th chord.It may be considered a half-diminished minor scale.

[bills]

Mixolydian, Aeolian Dom.(Melodic Dominant) and Phrygian Dom. ( Harmonic Dominant) they are Dominant scales. Dominant Scales have Dominant Funtions. You would not play a C Mixolydian over a C Maj. 7 chord because the Major 7 of the Chord would clash with the Flat 7 of the Mixo scale. Major Scales go with major chords and Dominant Scales go with Dominant chords. there are 2 other reasons the b7 in the mixolydian and the major 7 in the Ionian and Lydian scales are so inportant

1. If you are in the key of C Major and have a G7 the strongest resolution is to the one chord because the B and F (3 and b7) resolve to the C and E of the one chord; it's basic voice leading prinipals.

2. my buddies often as me why Steve Vai says the 6th scale is so important in defining melodies Ex. if I play C, Eb D, Bb until I hit the 6 scale degree you can't tell what scale I'm in you would ask yourself " is he going to define a Dorian Scale or a Aeolian Scale? if then I played a flat 6 you would than say oh, he's using Aeolian. The same goes with Maj. and Dominant If I play 1,2,3,4,5,6 at this point you can't tell if I'm going to use a Major or Mixolydian Scale then if I play a Major 7 you would say oh, He is using a Major scale.

this is why the 7 is so important

[wild_axeman]

But you can play Mixolydian over a plain old maj chord.


And if you play 1 2 3 #4 5 6
and then you play a maj7 chord then it's Lydian.
But if instead of playing a maj7 chord you play
a 7th chord,then it's Lydian Dominant.

[bills]

You could use the flat 7 over the Major chord, this isn't really something I want to get into but what the heck. once u hit the b7 you have implied a C7 chord Ex. the chord progression is Dm, g7, C you want the C chord to act as a one chord, however, if you play the mixo scale u imply the C7 which function as a dominant chord; in other words, you have changed the function of the C chord without realizing it because you have used the b7. The melody and/or harmony have ability to change the function.

On another topic, what type of tunes are you listening to: I'm listening to Iced Earth and Arch Enemy. I just bought " The Glorious Burden" Very cool record.

See ya