Time Signatures???

[The Fury]

Whats the piont of them really? Couldn't any time signature be given to any peice of music and it still be playable? Also, what if I wrote a little 3 minute song, how would I know what time signature to put it in?

I know what ther're for, I just dont understand why there are so many.

For instance 4:4 time signifies that there are four beats in a bar and each beat lasts one quater note, right? Isn't that the same as 8:8 then, because an 8th note lasts half as long as a 1/4 note?

And why do some peices of music change time signature half way through? I've got a tab book of 'The Seahorses' album and in some songs the time signature changes for 1 bar and then goes back, whats the piont of that, why is it neccesairy.

A lot of questions, I know, but please help.

[cyberfret]

Time signatures have to do with the pulse and feel of the music. While you could technically write a song that is in 4/4 time in 3/4 time, you will not feel the song that way. For instance a song that is in 4/4 time may change chords every 2 or 4 beats. While a song in 3/4 may change chords every 3 beats. Different time signatures have different accents as well. All beats in a measure are not created equal. Beat 1 gets the strongest accent naturally in any time signature.

While 2 measures of 3/4 and one measure of 6/4 time may be mathematically the same, there are times when you would chose to use 6/4. There may be a riff that is 6 beats long. So the feel of the riff would dictate using 6/4 rather than 2 measures of 3/4. There are definitely times when there is more than one way to write the same thing. So in one book you may see the same thing written as 3/4 and in another written as 6/4.

Songs that change time signatures within the song are just changing the rhythmic feel and accent patterns. Here are some examples.

--Nice To Know You by Incubus....latest single from their new CD.
The beginning of this song is 1 measure of 6/4 followed by 2 measures of 4/4. You could also think of this as 2 measures of 3/4 and 2 measures of 4/4....just 2 different sides of the same coin. But if you were going to count this and get the proper feel of the accents, you would count 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4. Nothing else would give you the feel of what is happening there. If you tried to just count it in 4/4 time, the main chord riff would never start in the same place within the measure.

--The Ocean by Led Zeppelin
This is 1 measure of 4/4 followed by a measure of 7/8. You could just think of 7/8 as 1/2 beat less than 4/4 time. That is actually how you feel it in this song....but there is no way to write that there are 3 and a half beats in a measure. So we have to write it as 7/8 time. So as you count this one, you could count 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 1 &...etc Just leaving out the & after 4 of the 2nd measure. Or you could count all the 8th notes......kind of like thinking that 4/4 time is 8/8 time (you will never find the time signature 8/8 by the way, it is always written as 4/4)....but then you could count 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Using different time signatures like that is a great way to break the monotony of having "Plain Jane" 4/4 time though the whole song. 98% of all rock tunes are 4/4 time. And like you said, there are a whole bunch of different time signatures out there. So just using 4/4 time is like going to a big salad bar and only eating carrots. There are so many other things to chose from. I listen to a lot of progressive rock music. And one of the elements that I like about that style is the use of many different time signatures. You should listen to Tools latest CD Lateralis....or some Dream Theater. Lateralis is just a time signature fest...they eat everything on the salad bar on this CD :)

--Shawn

[The Fury]

Thanks, that's a great explanation.

[Jook]

Incubus is the band that got me interested in time signatures. When i was learning the song Make Yourself (which switches between 7/8 and 4/4), I was just like, "why in the world would any band do that?" But now I love messing with differant time signatures because, like Shawn said, not too many people do now days.

Speaking of Incubus, their newest CD has quite a few differant time sigs on there (although not as many as Lateralis. It baffles me how complex those songs are).

[smfulla]

I think shawn would agree with me that Tool is a band that uses lots of different time signatures. I suggest you check some of their songs man... they all have a totally different feel to them

[Interact]

I'm going to go get some tool right now.






And fix the sink..

j/k

[GuitarDave]

Tool change time signatures like other bands change chords. Every song can be a music theory education.

[The Fury]

Can you all recognise a time change in a song? Do you know enough to tell which time signature the song was in and which one it changed to or can you just recognise that 'something' changed? How many listens to a song will it take you to work out a time change and how do you do it?

[GuitarDave]

It really depends on the song. I find that in many songs you can tell when it changes, but it's difficult to see what it changes into. Other songs are easier, a Jazz tune where it's really obvious is 'Blue Rondo A'La Turk' by Dave Brubeck, in which he goes back and forth from 9/8 and 4/4.

[Jook]

Some time signatures are more obvious than others. Odd meters (i.e. 5/4, 5/8, 7/4, 7/8, 9/8, etc) are easier to tell apart than, say, 4/4, 3/4, 6/8, 6/4 because the odd meters dont really flow in the natural flow of the music. The more you listen for changes and train your ear the easier it gets.

There are even really weird ones like 16/19 or 12/4, but they're not used too often.

[Jools]

Originally posted by Jook
Some time signatures are more obvious than others. Odd meters (i.e. 5/4, 5/8, 7/4, 7/8, 9/8, etc) are easier to tell apart than, say, 4/4, 3/4, 6/8, 6/4 because the odd meters dont really flow in the natural flow of the music. The more you listen for changes and train your ear the easier it gets.

There are even really weird ones like 16/19 or 12/4, but they're not used too often.

Figures why...

I really suck with time signatures though I know how to read standard notation fluently (on a violin) but I get mixed up with the simplest of rythmyc changes unless they're from "my head".