a question about composition

[55'gibby]

so much on this site is made about theory, yet almost nothing is said about composition. to me that is like being a cook, you know every spice there is, and own a hundred utensils... yet don't know what a stove or pan is. you can have all the bits and peices but haven't thought about ways to blend them together, what tools to use to make it good, doesn't make for interesting music. I listen to a lot of music in all different styles (most of the time I regret it). most of what I hear is scales over chords (theory). theory and composition should be learned at the same time. I have never read a single thread here about the standard musical form and ways to deviate from it. but I have found that learning composition has given me as much insight into music as theory, if not more!! I am not sure if it's the fact that modern music is very theoretically strong and almost totally devoid of interesting composition that it isn't an issue to anyone. could it be that composition is a far larger subject to tackle and can't be covered in a small post. I realize that 80% of music that has been popular over the last 20 or 25 years doesn't even have a key change, let alone a truley innovative arrangement.


does anyone want to talk composition?

anyone?

helloooooo?

pleeeeeeaaasse...

[Pezcore]

i would love to but as your typical more-theory-than-sense guitarist im afraid i don't know enough about composition and timings etc to hold my own in any kind of advanced debate.

I will however be watching this thread with interest.

-Pez

[eische]

hmmm, yeah I would love to, if there were much more of composing around me than just playing and writing down a tiny little melody from time to time and lay it in storage until I know enough theory (or simply spend time) to make it a full sounding song......

[55'gibby]

I'm not looking for a debate... I'm looking for an exchange of ideas

the idea of passing notes (by example), I want to know what people have tried and in what situation, and what was the outcome. to put it simply there are some standard passing notes. which one(s) did you use and why. I am looking at the three basic parts of music and how folks have used them to point or counterpoint.

it is in composition that theory becomes really useful and interesting. why learn all that dry theory if you have no intention of applying it?

[smfulla]

I would love to talk composition. But I'm afraid I'll be doing less talking and more learning as I know pretty much no techniques with composing. Like what is point and counterpoint? And what is passing notes?

[Andrew]

I don't really know much about composition , but I know what a passing note is. It is when you play a 'wrong' note to get from one right note to another. If youve ever used a blues scale, the b5 would normally be used as a passing note. In blues, the major 7th is another good passing note to play between the b7 and the root.

[BloodXero]

... excuse me, i hate to ripple the water, but whats composition.

[eische]

BloodXero: but whats composition.

magically creating inspired brand-new music :)

[BloodXero]

magically ... wow J/K. i sorta get.

[55'gibby]

nope not magic... inspired, sometimes

think of all the theory you learn as some of the tools in a tool box. think of composition as the project that you use the tools on. to simply collect tools doesn't make a project, and, inversly to start a project without tools makes the project much harder (or impossible). to learn composition gives you a method to formalize your ideas as well as a language to communicate them. you would be suprised just how much composition that you know just from playing songs and listening to music.

[BloodXero]

i get it now. like time measures and how it sounds.

[suppaenitetere]

I've looked endlessly for help on composition without any luck whatsoever. Could you recomend any books or websites to help with composition?

The main thing i do is play with chords till i find something i like... Occasionally if i want a song to have a specific sound ill give a certain number progression. FOr example if i want to give it a Stones classic rock feel ill use a I IV V but... other than that i end up playing around with chords until i find something i like. I wish i knew somewhere else to start as it gets very frustrating not coming up with anything cool after spending 3 or 4 hours trying.

ANother thing many people dont know is how to properly compose a cadence. You almost always resolve on the 1 chord, and there are infinate chords you can come from which give you that feeling of relief. I know more about melodic cadences than chordal cadences. You want to almost always want to end on 1 and 4(in the minor key) and I and... i guess 4 again but im not sure as i dont solo much in major keys. Basicly make sure you establish the root as the tonal center other wise you're key can be confused for another mode.

[55'gibby]

here is one site... I have found dozens:

http://www1.portoweb.com.br/compor/defaultt.htm

after you go thru this one I can post more

[suppaenitetere]

Its like i jsut found the holy grail. I've been striving for so long to really understand music beyond "play this scale over this" and its actually here. I dont ahve time right now but tommorrow im going to sit down with my guitar all day and go through this stuff.

[55'gibby]

your welcome..


you'll find that the study of compostition can become very addictive. but let me warn ya, once you begin to understand the musical possibilities that you have at your disposal, you will begin to listen to music in a different way. you begin to hear more than just solos and chord progressions, you begin to hear what is really happening with the song. then worst of all ****GASP**** begin to demand more of the arrangements and compositions that you listen to. things like notes per millisecond or whammy bar tricks will now have to fall into line with the entire arrangement. you will soon discover that most of the music you listen to doesn't vary much from a composition/arrangement point of view. this will drive you to write songs for yourself... and we all know where that could lead!!

studying composition will give you the skill set to create far more interesting songs, the tools to create far more involved arrangements, and a place to apply all that theory that you spent all that time learning.

let me know how it goes... the stuff on those sites is usually geared toward classical music, but the same ideas can (with a little imagination) applied to metal, blues, rock, jazz, country, raggae, zydeco... you name it.

[smfulla]

I tried understanding it... and I got blown away. Too much for me atm
I need something more indepth, with more explanations, or something else like that.
But thanx for the link anyway.

[55'gibby]

I have been searching for a decent primer on composition but haven't found one yet... I'll post one as soon as I find one

[55'gibby]

here is something I sent to someone:


most of the websites that I have found don't begin at the beginning. Let me give you a bit of backround info.

modern (non-classical) music is based on the rule of three: statement, re-statement, phantasmagoria (this refered to the standard musical form). look at the 12 bar blues in E. the E will be the statement, the A will be the re-statement, the B7 will be the phantasmagoria. the next level of the same form is how most people think of a song: verse (statement) chorus (re-statement) bridge (phantasmagoria). Now if you take one piece of the form (the E,A,B7 part) that will be called a theme, if you decide to play it twice but change the way you play it the second time that would be called a variation of a theme. Now when you put one set of the musical form together (verse, chorus, bridge) that would be called a movement (typically most rock music has three or four movements). I hope you got that part.

what I gave you is nothing more than an example of how most things are set up. just because it's called the rule of three doesn't mean you have to do it this way, frank zappa does a song called a 5th of 5ths where he does in what could be called the rule of 5. your only limited by your imagination as to the way you want to do things in that song. and what they give you on those sites is nothing more than examples of how someone did that one particular thing.

[Pick]

Gibby, do you find this slightly amusing that you are asking us about composition when your knowledge of it is already mind-blowing? But I can relate to you. I understand how confusing theory and composition is, and I am totally lost. It seems that there are unlimited possibilities with it, so it is kind of hard to contain it all in one post, or one website. It especially frustrating whenever you are trying to learn how it all relates to each other, then Korn comes behind you, slaps a few power chords together, and makes millions off it. Sometimes I just feel like giving up..

[55'gibby]

amusing?... no, not in the least.

I'll let you all in on my little plan (some may sinister plan).

music is the only modern art form that the art has been taken away from the artist. it is my hope that this trend ends very soon and forever. by understanding the possibilities and potentials of the musical form that one listens to that they won't just accept what they are given, rather, demand that the bar be raised and the envelopes be pushed. if a musician only listens to the radio and buys popular CDs they will never know that there is SO MUCH more that is possible, by beginning to understand composition it is my hope that the musicians of the world will begin to explore and experiment with new and far more personally gratifing ideas. If the musicians don't do the exploration and experimentation no one will!! I have a deep fear that if musicians don't take music back from the powers that be, that music will become simpler, more boring, and pointless. the common response that i get is "well people are buying this stuff up by the millions, if they didn't like it they wouldn't buy it" and i respond with "if the only thing i ever had was white bread and warm water, i would never know how good a fine meal and a glass of good wine could be".

I realize that i will never make a earth shattering musical statement (now that I'm old... and lack the talent). I would bet that there is the potential among the posters on this site alone that, a dozen could make a significant musicial contribution, but without opening thier eyes to what could be, instead of, what is... that will never happen. it is thru understanding the ideas available, and the willingness and foresight to spend the time to explore and produce your own musical statement is how you will truely discover YOUR musical voice, and in turn, unlock your musical potential.


I guess I shouldn't drink and post... huh?

[Pick]

Gibby, I know this won't mean anything to you, and you'll probably think I'm really stupid... But I have upmost respect for you after reading that post. I too have been watching music spiral downwards, and wished I could do someting, or someone would do someting to stop it. Because music is such a great concept with so much to be done, yet today their is so little of it anywhere. I turn on MTV or listen to the radio and get angered. Their is nothing but rap and pop... And the occasional strummer or punk band. That is when I start to loose faith, and think that guitar and music in general will just die completely soon.... I wish something would happen....

[The Wookie]

55 Gibby-

i have only been playing guitar shortly over a year. However, after I realized how i was able to play almost anything if i had the sheet music, i bagan looking into theory. despite the may years of musical intruction in piano, i have always, until recently, turned away from the theory my teacher would stress. i would just play for the enjoyment and leave it at that.

i agree with Pick 100% in how you have inspired me look deeper into music. it is interesting because i just had a conversation today with a friend of how music is going downhill; of how we are running out of ideas as there is nothing left to think up. reading this thread led me to develop a new perspective, as well as high aspirations for my soon to be compositions.

once again, you are the man!

[SugarJ]

Cool thread. Composing (ie., writin') is fun.

I'm not sure if I agree 100% about "taking art away from the artist". I doubt it was any different in Bach or Mozart's time. Since secular music was largely unwritten, the 18th century equivalents to "T-shirt and my panties on" have thankfully been forgotten. I think most people have always preferred rubbish. lol

I found the Walter Piston books, "Harmony", and "Counterpoint", to be good primers that essentially start with the major scale and work up from there. Here is another good composition link:

http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk/index.html

[jaytee]

i just wanted to bump this one up so i didnt lose track of it cuz i havent had time to deal with it yet :)
it was just too good to lose

--jt