1st thing to master before scales

[satch]

Many guitarist buy scale books and memorize notes
formulas etc but fail to understand how the fretboard can work
in their favor.Understanding octaves and distances between notes
and INVERSIONS is key to forming your own patterns on the fretboard.
Most guitarists learn scales in order and follow them by rote.
This is fine for finding out the scales/keys your going to use when
figuring something out or playing with others but is meaningless without some
creativity.
Example: here is a line of chromatic intervals based entirely in harmonic minor.

5...7...8...0...11...2...3...8...0...2...3...5...7 ....8....11...0....7
....2....1...4...11...3...1...5...4...2...1...2... 2....1.....3...1....7
the bottom line is distances between those intervals.
By knowing directions,inversions,octaves and relative modes
i can string together sets of these and form patterns anywhich way to china town.
If i start from beginning i will have 5....2...1....4...11...3
I choose 1 note from top line and then connect the line just below and 1
right of the top number.1st number is the chromatic mode from root
the rest are distances to ea. succesive note.
Thus 5...2...1...4...11...3
can be.....5.....2+1+4.......11.....3
5......7.....11.....3

-x--I-----I-----I--x--I------------
----I-----I-----I-----I--------------
----I-----I-----I-----I---------------
----I-----I-----I--x--I----------------
----I--0--I-----I-----I---------------
----I--r--I-----I-----I----------------
0 is my 5 then i place in order from there.
r is the relative root (this sequence is F harmonic minor)
pm me for further details.

[Scruffles]

Okay, that confused me.

[kid charlemagne]

I think it would help to add the actual notes for f harmonic minor. So the 2,1,4 are the 1,3,5 note of the 7 chord? Shouldnt the r be under the 0? Im confused lol really confused.

[sum1]

No offense Satch, but I have never understood your method of working the fretboard, it just doesnt work for me, if it works for then props to you, but i just dont see it I guess

[satch]

Yeah....I debated on not posting this because its kinda confusing
without lots of repetition and works much easier in person.
I never liked using actual letter names for notes because by doing so
confines you to 1 key.Numbers allow you to move into different keys
and are easier to work with But are initially harder to understand because
the numbers mean different things at different stages.
I never liked terms such as minor 7 or # this or b that ,I think using
0-11 and inversions and octaves makes retaining all the theory much more
organized.Ive had students go WOW!!!! this is so much better that traditional
theory.Im meeting up with an ol army buddy today to go to satch concert
and he is an experienced player with little theory.He wants to learn the way
i teach and i will let ya know how hard it was for him to grasp.

[ianb]

It is a shame that my current trip to the States doesn't go anywhere near you, because I wouldn't mind booking a lesson or two.

[bjurman]

see for me using the traditional system of intervals works best
because it seems very logical to me

like i can tell the difference between thirds easily and 7ths

and also i like have formulas written like 1 3b 5 7b

because its easy if you know your keys and such

but there are many different ways i would think

[Scruffles]

I dunno, I seem fine using scale degrees and note names. I'm still not exactly sure what you're trying to get around.

[satch]

well after about an hour of showing this stuff to my fellow
guitarists who knows almost nothing about theory ,he is starting to understand
it and very inspired to use it.He likes the number and modal approach
and says that it makes much more sense to him to approach this way.
The whole element to understanding it is realizing that the numbers have
different applications and steps,you have to know which method of numbers
your using at the moment and why.

[satch]

Many guitarist buy scale books and memorize notes
formulas etc but fail to understand how the fretboard can work
in their favor.Understanding octaves and distances between notes
and INVERSIONS is key to forming your own patterns on the fretboard.
Most guitarists learn scales in order and follow them by rote.
This is fine for finding out the scales/keys your going to use when
figuring something out or playing with others but is meaningless without some
creativity.
Example: here is a line of chromatic intervals based entirely in harmonic minor.

5...7...8...0...11...2...3...8...0...2...3...5...7 ....8....11...0....7
....2....1...4...11...3...1...5...4...2...1...2... 2....1.....3...1....7
the bottom line is distances between those intervals.
By knowing directions,inversions,octaves and relative modes
i can string together sets of these and form patterns anywhich way to china town.
If i start from beginning i will have 5....2...1....4...11...3
I choose 1 note from top line and then connect the line just below and 1
right of the top number.1st number is the chromatic mode from root
the rest are distances to ea. succesive note.
Thus 5...2...1...4...11...3
can be.....5.....2+1+4.......11.....3
5......7.....11.....3

-x--I-----I-----I--x--I------------
----I-----I-----I-----I--------------
----I-----I-----I-----I---------------
----I-----I-----I--x--I----------------
----I--0--I-----I-----I---------------
----I--r--I-----I-----I----------------
0 is my 5 then i place in order from there.
r is the relative root (this sequence is F harmonic minor)
pm me for further details.

F harmonic minor notes to prove my setup works.......
0...2...3...5..7...8....11....chromatic intervals of harmonic minor
1...1...1...1..1...1.....1.......F on low E
F...G...G#.A#C...C#...E

[Scruffles]

F harmonic minor notes to prove my setup works.......
0...2...3...5..7...8....11....chromatic intervals of harmonic minor
1...1...1...1..1...1.....1.......F on low E
F...G...G#.A#C...C#...E

But those sharps should be flats. . .F G Ab Bb C Db E F.

[satch]

Enharmonics.......so it doesnt matter.
They are the same notes,just depends on how you study your theory.

[Scruffles]

Enharmonics.......so it doesnt matter.
They are the same notes,just depends on how you study your theory.

Hate to break it to you, but it really does matter.

[ianb]

F harmonic minor notes to prove my setup works.......
0...2...3...5..7...8....11....chromatic intervals of harmonic minor
1...1...1...1..1...1.....1.......F on low E
F...G...G#.A#C...C#...E

Should the numbers not look like this?
0...2...3...5..7...8....11....chromatic intervals of harmonic minor
....2...1...2..2...1.....3.......F on low E


So that the bottom line gives the chromatic distance between the notes on the top line, otherwise that is the bit that I don't get.

[satch]

ianb.......yes you are correct.
You can arrange the top line however you wish.
This is the voicing of the scale notes.
I like this approach because i can skip all around using different orders(voicings)
and then apply it from any key and the 1st note in series is the chromatic
distance from key note or as i call it modal chromatic note.
Traditionally for example....5th mode of major is mixolydian
But if you think in chromatics mixolydian would fall from 7.
............................maj.....dor...phr....l yd...mix...aeol....loc....maj
major in chromatics.....0.......2......4......5.....7...... 9......11......0
......................................w.......w... .1/2....w.....w......w.....1/2
everyone knows the whole,whole 1/2 thing and this proves my theory.

simple major scale by rote in chromatics...0..2..4..5..7..9...11
rearranged random orders however you wish

..........4....7...11...0....2....5....7....9....0 ....7....11
................3...4....1....2....3....2....2.... 3....7.....4
I could choose 9 from top line then connect 3...7...4.....under it.

9....3....7....4
Placing 9 anywhere i wish on fretboard then notes 3 higher...7 higher..and the
last note 4 higher than 7.
If i placed my 9 on an A note for example....I would be working from A minor
or i could think of it as needing to go up 3 to find relative major key.
9+3=12......or 0 being root of scale.....A...a#..b....c
.................................................. ..9..10...11...0....
C falls on 0 so this can also be considered C major.
I do realize that actual keys depend on the function of the notes involved.
But this tells me what im using and which modal numbers i can
emphasize to get a certain sound.

ianb can you back me up on the enharmonics thing.
Im being told that it does matter but for what im doing it doesnt matter.
Reading staff music yes its very important but thats not what im doing here.

To me an A# is the same thing as a Bb.
The way i construct things is all from #s and i dont see the point in
trying to convert both when they have the same application.

[ianb]

ianb can you back me up on the enharmonics thing.
Im being told that it does matter but for what im doing it doesnt matter.
Reading staff music yes its very important but thats not what im doing here.

To me an A# is the same thing as a Bb.
The way i construct things is all from #s and i dont see the point in
trying to convert both when they have the same application.

With an even tempered instrument like the guitar, you cannot play a Bb that sounds different to an A#.
If how the notes sound is the same then, the only reason to swap between the names is for communication with other musicians.
I don't see any reason not to convert your scale notes back using each note letter once and # or b as appropriate.

[lespaul_rentals]

Okay, Satch, I think I see your point, if I'm taking it the right way...

I find myself using scales to make solos, but more than anything I just use the geometry of the fretboard to know what notes sound good together. Is that what you're trying to get at, Satch? Because if it is, I totally agree.

[Hawk]

I like the way it works, the only thing I can see that might be a disadvantage is if you want to site read (Staff Music), then you have to work through two systems... but that's what tab is for anyway.

[satch]

You can also work this system backwards........
change reference note to see how many scales fit the intervals.......

example...........

------------------4--6------
---------------7------------
--------7---9----------------
-----7----------------------(this will be my reference note for s&gs)
---------------------------
----------------------------
5........2.....2.....2....2
intervals from 7 on d string
Now lets build a chart............


0..5....7....9.....11....1...............
....5....2....2.....2.....2

If my reference note is called root
then scales having ....0..1..5..7...9..11.....could work.
Like Neapolitian major.....key of A neapolitian major to be exact

This ties in perfectly with why its helpful to know all 28 scale
formulas from grimore scale bible.
I simply converted all the scales in that book to chromatic numbers
and memorized them using acronyms and such.
Neapolitian major is easy because every interval is odd except for root.
Neapolitian minor contains 1st 4 notes odd then 8 11 and root 0
.......0....1....3...5...7....8...11
Locrian natural 7 contains 1st 3 notes odd then 6....8....11.....0
.......0...1....3...5....6...8....11
Now you can see how i memorize this stuff.
I call these scales odds n evens.....because they fit a common thread...
Whole tone is in this category because every note is even including root..
0.......2....4....6......8.....10
Thats 4 scales you now know........easy stuff

[satch]

I realized something else about this that i like...............
You can string random numbers together as you wish
by trying them out on guitar or just on paper.
Make a notebook full of these and you have instant sight of various modes
and scales and intervals.......heres an example............





.....(5...9...0.).3..10..6...3...4.....3....3...8. ..1...3...5..11..1.(4...2....9...4)
........4...3...3...7....8...9...1....11...0...5.. .5...2...2...6..2...3...10...7...7..
Now lets look for modes of the major scale from above using( )
From our random numbers we find.............
5....4....3
and
4...10...7....7
0....2...4...5...7....9...11.....represent numbers for major scale/modes
Neapolitian major........
1...2....2....6....2
Harmonic minor..........
3....0....5
3....2.....6
etc..................
We could also stack more lines on top of row 590 starting with a number
different than 5
11 more if we wanted to give us every possible way these intervals
fit from all 12 chromatic modes and how we could match up the 28 scales
to see enharmonic scale tones and experimentation.
I feel with these charts ,your ear and some creativity you could
make up interesting progressions and realize how to not repeat yourself
or if you want .......do repeat yourself:-)

[Son of Kinney]

Hello folks, I am the one satch was talking about going to the Joe Satriani concert with. I finally got registered here and now its time to join in when I can.

Ok, first things first! Satch's theory is pretty darn amazing. I can see where his theory would draw some confusion, i have read the posts, and I totally understand that. However, after sitting down with him and not even scratching the surface of his theory, I probably learned more about getting around on the fretboard in 2 hours than I have in 10 years. In his defense, HE IS JUST PLAIN RIGHT! I have read the scale books and glanced through some theory "manuals" only to come out more confused and with brain fatigue. With his theory, the confusion quickly turned into great interest once I began to SEE what he was doing. When I started to grasp what he was showing/teaching me, my guitarists "writers block" began to fade away. My interest in playing increased! If I didn't live so dang far away from him, I would probably be over at his house daily trying to pick his brain and learn his theory from the ground up.

All I got to say is "Don't knock it until you try it"...seriously...you may be very surprised. Way to go satch. Your E numbers Theory is A+ in my opinion.

[satch]

Cool!!!........Welcome to many hours of guitar talk with some killer
musicians on these forums.Not me being killer musician but folks like wildaxeman..ianb
fast red pony car and many others.If you want the lastest review
on killer gear then fast red pony car is your guy.Hes a carvin endorser:D
He knows more about tone than i do about theory.......lol
I think he got mad because i got a marshall 2x12 and not a MTS carvin.
(back on point)Anywhos theory to me is only a tool to help you thru ruts or gives you
something to help build your chops up.When your trying to nail down
a super fast solo or just in the moment of inspiration its ok to let the theory
take a back seat.Im just such a theory nerd sometimes i overthink everything.
Again welcome and you my freind are a good guitar player and it would be
neat if we lived closer because our styles of music are so close.
It was inspiring to be playing together at guitar center and having people
stop by to see who was playing.We sound good together.
I didnt end up with the taylor but i did pick up a marshall mg250dx 2x12
amp last weekend in oklahoma city:-)
I wanna see ya on here to join in frequently and thanx for the kind words:o

[pieguy]

At first I was like Huh?? But I see what you're saying and I'm sure it is easier, but people have thought of that before, as they have many shortcut systems over the years, and there's a reason that theory is studied the way it is. If you're just talking bout an easy way to remember scales I see no harm, but as far as relating to everything else one must learn, well that is why theory is studied the way it is. I'm no knocking it, but I'd hate for some kid to see this and think that this is some quick shortcut through to learning. Plus, many great players, your favorites included, have learned the normal way and didn't need a shortcut so I don't see what's so hard about learning theory normally anyway? It just takes dedication, which if you don't have for something like that then you won't have it to get to where you want to be as a player then anyway.

[RTS]

Now many can attest I am a stipler and almost a jerk it apperas when it comes to doing things the "perefct way" many call it that when I refer to things as being actually the proper way.Like I said they think.But putting that to the side I think his theory is sound and will benifit many if used.Not all are loking for a major amount of interest in a certain area and to learn a quick fill fast and hold it in your memory banks this would be a perfect way.I think satch has a good foundation here that many can use especially novice to advanced players for certain things.Yes I have seen like before in the past but have not used it. I learned a different way but I must say this is a good tool to have in your toolbox and also you may be able to reach many that have problems understanding certain pieces just a bit faster.To loose a bit but still hold the foundation is ok in this instance especially and also would bring a bit of spirit to some that have tiered of trying and maybe letting themselves down.Yes this can work and I must yield a bit and say good Job satch.I wonder if this can method could be taken to a further level somehow?
I had a theory piece I had to do in school years ago and if somebody could tell me how to get the scanner to work without it saying pictures I would like to post it.
Oh that was a compliment satch and a very good one from me