Deutsche, bitte?

[BloodXero]

halo. ich entschieden zu anfangen ein Deutsche "thread" zu werk auf meinen Vokabular. eische, gck, jaytee ... ich denken wir "could" sprechen Deutsche um Gitare und viel von andere Zeug. Da ist nein andere Platz zu sprechen Deutsche und da ist viel von Volk hier zu sprechen zu. auch, "could" du korrekt eine von meinen Irrtum?e?. Kürzlich, ich haben "been" übersetzen-"ing" RammStein Liede, aber Ich halten"ed" für ein Weile weil von Schule.

PS the parentheses are thingsi dont know and the question marks are what i think is correct for that word.

EX: Irrtum?e?- i think you add an 'e' to make it plural but im not sure.

[Ginner4]

guten tag.

ich deutsch

wer ist dat?

dat is joo


hahahahah

du drekkick veinskin

[Ginner4]

guten tag.

ich heisse kyle ginn.

wie heisst du?

tchus

[Mr B]

achtung baby

[fizz]

ich habe ein schokoladen kucken mit mein freinden in dem park

ya!

[eische]

Originally posted by BloodXero
halo. ich entschieden zu anfangen ein Deutsche "thread" zu werk auf meinen Vokabular. eische, gck, jaytee ... ich denken wir "could" sprechen Deutsche um Gitare und viel von andere Zeug. Da ist nein andere Platz zu sprechen Deutsche und da ist viel von Volk hier zu sprechen zu. auch, "could" du korrekt eine von meinen Irrtum?e?. Kürzlich, ich haben "been" übersetzen-"ing" RammStein Liede, aber Ich halten"ed" für ein Weile weil von Schule.

PS the parentheses are thingsi dont know and the question marks are what i think is correct for that word.

EX: Irrtum?e?- i think you add an 'e' to make it plural but im not sure.

klar, wir können, wenn Cyberfret uns lässt, hier gern einen deutschen »thread« starten :D ääähhhh: korrigieren??? - was Du geschrieben hast??? - wirklich??? - hier??? - denn: es ist nicht nur »ein« Irrtum (pl: Irrtümer), na gut:

Hallo. Ich habe entschieden einen Deutschen "thread"anzufangen, um meinen Vokabular auf zu bessern. eische, gck, jaytee ... ich denken wir "could"[könn(t)en] Deutsch sprechen, über Gitarre und viel anderes Zeug. Da ist kein anderer Platz, um Deutsch zu sprechen und da ist viel Volk hier zum Reden. Außerdem, "could"[kannst/könntest] du einen von meinen Irrtümern korrigieren. Kürzlich, habe ich übersetzt [no »ing«-froms in german, if that was the problem here] ein Rammstein-Lied, aber ich ?[habe aufgehört]? für ein Weile, weil [ich keine Schule habe]. [err??? your stopped translating on your own, because your away from school - is that right???]


man, I feel bad for doing that, because it looks awfull eventhough I think you're DOING GREAT with the language... and if it wasn't what you meant me to do, then I hope you take my honest and deepest apologies...


to all you others :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[ESP_Viper]

I love german! I love german cars!

[Mr B]

closet Teutons are coming out all around me.

[jaytee]

yay im so glad eische did that cuz i didnt have the time...ok im lazy :)
besides im sure i would have messed up alot of the grammar corrections myself....adjective endings and genders are really hard for english speaking americans to grasp...prepositions he will get soon tho i think...with some experience...
im pretty sure you got everything eische...
i think hes doin great too...especially considering he hasnt really been studying the language that long....

Vielleicht soll ich alles auf Deutsch schreiben....doh!

--jt

[eische]

:D @jaytee: wenn ich Bloodxero richtig verstanden habe, dann solltest Du alles auf deutsch schreiben :D
btw: being a native speaker doesn't save me from making mistakes from time to time ;) - and really I don't want to count my mistakes writing english here.... :rolleyes:

@ MrB: BOOOO

[BloodXero]

@ eische, Danke,"that" ist exakt was Ich gesucht du zu tun. Ich hatte(gehabt?) zu auf ein gut Nummer um Definitione, weil Ich will keommen (...gwehnt...?) zu es.

@ alle, Traurig Ich war fort bis dann, weil Ich hatte Probleme mit meinen Eltern (AKA "Grounded"). Das Ting Ich "am" haben meiste Schweirigkeit mit ist wenn einen Verb kommt von einen Subjekt und wenn zu hinzufügen "e" oder "n" ect. zu das Ende um einen Wert.

PS. Ich heisse "Bailey Curzadd"

[BloodXero]

also, correct anything i screwed up or in quotes. and also, i stopped translating on my own because i was busy with school. im also having trouble with grammar and how to say certain phrases and correctly.

[jaytee]

ok....Ich werde versuchen, etwas zusagen, das hilft dich.....
aber Ich weisse, dass Ich viele Fehler machen, so vielleicht eische wird Ich auch korrigieren...hahaha...

1) Lern gutes Englisch....
Man musst "clauses" verstehen, um zu gutes Deutsch sprechen. Das ist ein Fehler, der du vielen Zeiten machen hast. Es ist besser, ob man seine Subjekten und Verben zusammen machen koennen, (nur ein Subjekt mit ein Verb oder Verbummmm damn...wie sagt man string of verbs? lol) um zu siene Satz sehr leichter machen.
Benutz COMMAS!

2)Ob du ein Wort weisst nicht, find ein andere Weg, es zu sagen.
Hier:
Ich habe vergessen, wie man "clauses" auf Deutsch sagt. So muss ich erklaeren, dass du soll nur ein Subjekt mit ein Verb benutzen. Versuch nicht, ein Satz zuviel schwer machen. Auch vergess nicht, dass man kann viele Verb mit nur ein Subjekt benutzen. Es ist so, eben auf Englisch....

3)Irrtuemern.....wir haben "Fehler" gesagen....nur einanderes Wort....

mehr an ein andere Tag (got a feeling that phrase dont make sense...haha)

--jt

ps Versuch noch einmal, deine letze Post, ueber was du schwer findet...Ich denke, dass Ich nicht verstehen habe

[eische]

:eek: wow, eehhh, ja, ich habe auch nicht ganz verstanden, was Du meinst Bloodxero. Ich denke, es geht um die Endungen der verschiedenen Fälle (endings of the different casus - like Nominativ, Dativ, Genitiv and that - combined with the different gender of the nouns, that's hard because you only have one of each in english)...
...und noch etwas ist wichtig im Deutschen: die Verben stehen meist am Ende eines Satzes, also muss man sich viel merken bis man das Ziel des Inhalts erreicht, und die Struktur gleicht einer Schachtel
(verbs are normally placed at the end of the sentence, at least if it's not the main clause, see above, and the structure's like a box)

jaytees Nummer 2 ist wirklich ein guter Tipp (I use that regularly speaking english)
- correcting you jaytee - I could, but I guess it was just a joke, you're really good - but if you want to...

@ eische, Danke,"that" ist exakt was Ich gesucht du zu tun. Ich hatte(gehabt?) zu auf ein gut Nummer um Definitione, weil Ich will keommen (...gwehnt...?) zu es.

@ alle, Traurig Ich war fort bis dann, weil Ich hatte Probleme mit meinen Eltern (AKA "Grounded"). Das Ting Ich "am" haben meiste Schweirigkeit mit ist wenn einen Verb kommt von einen Subjekt und wenn zu hinzufügen "e" oder "n" ect. zu das Ende um einen Wert.

@ eische: Danke,"that" ist exakt, was ich dich gebeten hatte zu tun.
Ich hatte(gehabt?) zu auf ein gut Nummer um Definitione, weil Ich will keommen (...gwehnt...?) zu es. ooops, sorry, could you try that again, I thought it could be, you supposed this to be a good way to come to a better german, but I'm not sure

@ alle: Es ist traurig (schade), dass ich fort war bis jetzt, weil ich Probleme mit meinen Eltern (AKA "Grounded") hatte. Das Ding, mit dem ich am meisten Schwierigkeiten habe, ist, wenn ein Verb von (??? - like you make a verb out of a noun or the thing called flexion, see above) einem Subjekt kommt und wann man ein "e" oder "n" ect. an das Ende um einen Wert (??? - what do you mean here, the casus???} hinzufügt.

Ich musste auch meine Eltern besuchen - wegen der Wahl - und hatte auch Problemchen. Ich glaube, Eltern machen immer Probleme, manchmal größere manchmal kleinere...cheer up Bloodxero

[fizz]

.....quite a handful!!!!

[jaytee]

hmmmm.....ok to make what i said a bit less confusing...a little bit in english.....

i realize that i was trying to define what a clause was...and i said to pair up one subject with one verb...but thats not necessarily true....you could have helping verbs and such....
hmmmmm...how do you explain grammar in any language over the internet? not easily!
perhaps it would help if i said...that what i mean is for him to make it a goal to simplify his thoughts by dissecting his sentence and deciding which phrases modified which nouns and such.....i wonder if they do sentence diagramming down there in his school? you never know....

also....im not sure if he was referring to the problem with cases...which is really hard...or maybe its a problem with conjugation?
really cases you can learn rules to and once youve got your english grammar under control it will make it easier to apply the rules to german grammar...
conjugation however..unfortunately in alot of cases has to just be memorized...there are often patterns tho that help you to do this...

oh yeah...eische....you dont have to correct mine...its ok... :) thanks for thinking im good...but im not good enough to use it for a job....so ...i guess my degree turns into a personal goal and not so much a career goal...oh well...lol....

tschuess

--jt

[jaytee]

doh!

Ich hoffe, als meine Tochter 14 oder 15 ist, findet sie nicht, dass Ich zuviele Problemchen mache! lol...

Ich denke, dass Ich eben mehr Fehler machte....lol....oops

--jt

[Mr B]

how does one say "I love David Hasselhoff, I have all of his records and think that he is better than Jimi Hendrix" in German?

[eische]

@ jaytee: yeah, I understood that you were referring to clauses, but I don't think they're the main problem - unless you build mammut-sentences with over a dozen (damn I forgot the not-main-clauses name: Nebensatz :rolleyes: ) different clauses, like relatives, konsecutives and rhetoric questions flowing into another...


...hmmm, sagt das Deine Tochter auch??? ;) - naja, Probleme gehören eben dazu, solange sie nicht zu groß werden und man sie gemeinsam lösen kann, ist doch alles in Ordnung, nur manchmal eben lästig :p (aber sie haben auch nichts mit dem Alter zu tun (I'm 33), man bleibt doch immer Kind) ... I mein, meines bestand darin, dass meinem Vater mein Auto zu dreckig war, um mitzufahren. Glück für mich, denn er hat sofort zu Schwamm und Seife gegriffen und es auf Hochglanz poliert :D


@ MrB: sorry, but translating a sentence like that (especially the Hendrix-part) is against everything I believe in, musically...can't do that and look in the mirror again tomorrow...:p

[fizz]

hahah! please! translate the hasselhoff one!!!!!

[eische]

baaaahhhhhh sigh:

ok, but a very free one, not literally:

»I love David Hasselhoff, I have all of his records and think that he is better than Jimi Hendrix«

Ich steh ja total auf David Hasselhoff, hab auch seine ganzen Platten. Der is ja besser als Jimi Hendrix, echt jetzt.

würg....

[Mr B]

danka shin.

[BloodXero]

hey guys ... im back. and i got great news. i bought "German for Dummies". GREAT BOOK!!! it explains grammar in a way that i get it (no offense eische, but i am a VERY visual learner). it had tables for the article endings, pronunciation, an audio cd, noun genders, endings, sentence structure and EVERYTHING!! i dont know if you mentioned this eische but it had alot on cases and how the verb always goes second except for questions and a few exceptions. it had lots of vocabulary divided into sections and verb charts for regular/irregular verbs (with lots of verb forms). now the only real questions i have are specific questions, and here are my first.

1. what are the sentence construction rules for a compound sentence
2. what case does a prepositional phrase fit into
3. are there any special rules for prepositions and articles and pronouns in prepositional phrases
4. is there any difference between the english "ch/k" and the german "ch"

it also has a buncha holidays, dates/times, common phrases and some sorta funny cartoons:

there's a guy talking to his wife in the vegetable section of a german "Supermarkt", he's looking in a german book and he says:

"Wait! Wait! i wanna what gender an eggplant is so i can pick it up."

[eische]

ja, macht nix, Bloodxero...your welcome, everyone has his own style of learning...

...btw, the verb doesn't always go in second positon. I mean the FEW exeptions are more or less a regular, because the verb always comes in last position in every subordinate clause and every verb-phrase holding more than one verb, but whatever...

so the questions:

1. compound??? - you mean a sentence with a subordinate clause, I guess: first visual (hehe) sign is that you use a comma to devide it from the main clause - at both sides if it is imbedded. Then different meanings are expressed by different conjunctions (because = weil etc.) for causal, consecutive, relative, temporal meanings...and the subordinates are inserted at the places they refer to...

2. prepositions - some are bound to distinct cases, mostly to the dativ (in, auf, bei) - "wegen" is always followed by the genetiv. Maybe you find a chart for that too...

3. the phrase-structure begins with the preposition and is followed by a normal noun-phrase with the article-adjective(s)-noun order

4. "ch" in german is completely different than the english one. It represents two different sounds depending on which vowl it follows (ich/ach-distinction):
The "ch" as in "ich" (after i, e, ö, ü, ei, e(ä)u) sounds similar to the first "h" in Hugh - it's built in the middle/front of the mouth.
The "ch" as in "ach" (after a, o, u, au) is built more in the throat - just try to say the first one after one of the vowls above, but don't close the mouth, but let it stay in the position used for the vowl (maybe even a bit more open)...
...english "k"??? - you don't have so much of those, you transcribe the sound with a "c" most of the time, please make an example of what you meant with that...

...das Buch(subj.-noun-phrase: art. noun), das (relative-clause introduced by a demonstratively used article corresponding to Buch as conj.) Du (subj.) da (filling) gekauft hast (composed verb), scheint(verb 1) ja richtig (fillings) klasse(descriptive attr.) zu sein(verb 2 - infinitive-phrase). Dann(consecutiv-main-clause with conj.=then) können(verb 1) wir(subj.) diesen thread(acc.obj) ja (filling) bald(temp.attr.) wirklich(adj. in attr. use) wieder(temp.attr.) mit deutschen Sätzen(prep-phrase: prep. adj. noun/ dativ) füllen(verb 2), so wie(consecutive-subordinate-clause with conj.=as like) Du(subj.) Dir(refl.obj.) das(acc.obj. - in referrence only represented by a demonstrative art.) ursprünglich(adj. in temp-attr. use) gedacht hattest(combined verb)...

bis bald, maybe I should use colours next time to mark the different sentence elements...

eische

[BloodXero]

ok, what im getting with the clauses is that the main verb comes at the end of the verb phrase, after the helping verbs. the verb phrase comes second in an independent clause, last in a subordinate clauses, and first in questions ... am i right?

also, im probably gonna have to here the german "ch's" to get them right. il wait for German I.

il keep looking for something that determines what case each preposition belongs to.

what im talking about with the prepositional phrase rules is if there are any rules that change endings on words like articles (ein -> einem [masculine/dative]), pronouns (du -> dir [informal/dative]), or any other type of word.

also, how do you know if a verb is regular(weak) or irregular(strong).



PS. does anyone know some good german grammar sites (made in english).

[jaytee]

http://german.about.com/mbody.htm

yep...theres a good one...we used it alot in college....you can even test yourself there....

question...you havent even taken germanI yet? id say you are way ahead of the game and shouldnt try to cram in so much so fast....
theres alot to learn...and you are gonna be soooo bored the first year of class at this rate...lol...

oh...on pronounciation...."ich" think of a hissing cat...sort of...
and "ach"...think of loosening up a hocker....yuck...sorry its the best i can think of to describe it

--jt

[eische]

Originally posted by BloodXero
ok, what im getting with the clauses is that the main verb comes at the end of the verb phrase, after the helping verbs. the verb phrase comes second in an independent clause, last in a subordinate clauses, and first in questions ... am i right?

principally yes, as long as the verb in the independant clause is not a composed one (and using helping verbs is a way of a composed verb, it's easier to look for flected/non-flected-terms), then the verb makes a braket: the flected one in second position the unflected part (infinitive, past participle) at the end of the sentence:

ich besuchte dich (simple past)
ich habe dich besucht (past perfect)
ich möchte dich besuchen (auxiliary+infinitve)

in questions you could put the object you want to stress before the verb - and again it's only the flected form in first position, the unflected at the end:

tust du das?
hast du das getan? - regularly: did you do that - like a checking if a duty is done or something...

das hast du getan? - with a stress (was it really that thing that you did), then the thing referred to with the "das" is something very outstanding, unbelievable or untypical

just because you talk about the whole verb-phrase (that containes more than just the verb, but attributes (always unflected adjectives) too) in subordinate clause the FLECTED form stands in the end-position, for combined verbs that means that the unflected part comes first:

ich habe dich gesehen (main)
weil ich dich gesehen habe (subo.)- nicht: weil ich dich habe gesehen


also, im probably gonna have to here the german "ch's" to get them right. il wait for German I.

aww :D

il keep looking for something that determines what case each preposition belongs to.

what im talking about with the prepositional phrase rules is if there are any rules that change endings on words like articles (ein -> einem [masculine/dative]), pronouns (du -> dir [informal/dative]), or any other type of word.

well, those go together: you have to know the case that follows the prep. and then you know which ending to use (I gave you a list of all the endings, I remember and you said you have them in the book):

von einem Freund (dat)
wegen eines Freundes (gen)
bei einem Freund (dat) ...etc.

some preps. can go with different cases depending on what you want to say:

auf dem Baum - dat. marks that something is on the tree
auf den Baum - acc. marks that something is going up the tree

in der Hütte - dat. marks that something is in the hut
in die Hütte - acc. marks that something/one is going inside the hut


also, how do you know if a verb is regular(weak) or irregular(strong).

so sorry, you don't know!! Just like in english - you have to learn them by heart. I know it's heavy because there are about 300, but the way to know is just too historical to come in handy - you had to know the german of the 6th century for that...but a good dictionary will give you a full list of the strong verbs.



PS. does anyone know some good german grammar sites (made in english).

tja, nochmal Entschuldigung, aber ich musste die Sprache ja nie auf diese Weise lernen, also kenne ich keine. Ich kann aber gern suchen, ob ich auf irgendeiner DAF-Seite einer Uni etwas finde... :p

[BloodXero]

first things first, what are flected and non-flected verbs. i get the basic sentence structure now ... il just have to work on it.

@ jaytee, i haven't taken german I yet because i can't. im only in junior high and the only languages up until now are spanish and french. EVERYONE learns those. also, my friends older brother has been through GERMAN IV! and can help me. maybe i can learn "ch" from him...? german starts in 9th grade and i find it pretty cool. what i really want to do and would like to try and take a test or talk to the german teacher and see if i would know enough to jump to german "II" DUM Dum duuuuuuuuum! but it would take some studying. with the help of you guys i could probably get the GERMAN V!!!! on my senior year. i went to that site before (www.about.com) jaytee. i think you refered it in the other german thread. its a great site with lots of info... im gonna go back.

i think i have a solution to the verb "strength" problem. there's is a book at a local book store called "501 German Verbs". it has 501 totally different verbs and it gives about 50 different sayings of the verb with different tenses and versions.

PS. i got a pretty cool story:

my friend and i were listening to me Rammstein cd through the speakers i built when he remembered something his older had told him. his brother was going to college and he had a book assignment to read. his english class was second semester until his counselor changes it without him knowing. so, he hadnt read the book and he had no clue what it was about. he went to his first day of class and they were having a discussion. he was hoping to lay low and listen in. but the people knew him, and they knew how GREAT of a debator he was so they voted him to GO FIRST!! he got up there nervously and started thinking. his teacher was getting angry so he thought really fast. then ... he started speaking in german. he wasnt actually discussing it, he was saying random hilarious phrases that the teacher didnt understand. the people that were in the crowd and knew german had to pretty mcuh tape themselves shut to keep from laughing there head off and dying from "over-laughing". his teacher didnt understand german so he thought he was doing the "discussion" in german and GAVE HIM EXTRA CREDIT!!! he was saying random stuff that he thought of on the spur of the moment like: "The rounded cat has been castrated on the wooden fence" and all this other stuff that was absolutely hilarious to the other students and fantastic to the teacher ... the moral of the story ... BEING BILINGUAL HELPS!

[eische]

ok, flexion is the change of the verbs and nouns according to their grammatical state in a sentence and the meaning they should hold (simply all the endings and vowl-changes at a word)...

so flected verb-forms are the ones that have changes and so have the marks of time, person, singular or plural etc. on them...
the unflected forms are participles and infinitives that don't change, but give the content/meaning to the whole verb-phrase...

ich habe getan
du hast getan
er/sie/es hat getan

wir haben getan
ihr habt getan
sie haben getan

see, the change is only on the different forms of "haben"(that's the infinitve, like in this: es ist gut, Zeit zu haben), but it only indicates the past tense here. The meaning lays on the participle "getan" (inf. tun) and that one doesn't change...
it would change in the present tense though:

ich tue
du tust
er/sie/es tut

wir tun
ihr tut
sie tun


hmmm, 500 - that's a bit too much, and normally you only have to learn the change of the main vocal of the word (tun, tat, getan - nehmen, nahm, genommen - gehen, ging, gegangen), so usually (like in english) you learn the the infinitive (for the present and future tenses), the simple past (3rd pers.) and the past participle (the participle is used to build all extended past-tense-forms - like plusquamperfect, future 2 and that, which are - honestly speaking - useless to learn, because they aren't used. They are make-ups by some language-scientists that tried to make german as good a language as latin, so they searched for similar structures, and if they didn't find it, they made them up ... future 2 - bah, there will be something in the future, that will lay in the past at the time in the future I'm referring to now - huh - even thinking about this tense is a mess...)
...everything else on the verb is easier to deduce than to just learn by heart (well, my way of learning, for sure here, but check the underlined endings of the examples above, they are always the same - well as long as you don't come to "Konjunktiv", but you don't have to start that complicated)


:D yeah, being bilingual is cool: a friend of mine learned turkish and we have a lot of turkish poeple living here, but my friend she looks so much "teutonical"(you kow long blond hair, very pale skin, light eye-colour and that), so noone suspects her to know turkish. At different occasions she shocked poeple badmouthing her in turkish, thinking she wouldn't understand, by just standing up and telling them they were assholes - in turkish of course...it's wonderful to watch those stupid faces... ;)

[jaytee]

hahaha....cool...

i was thinking bout it..and ive kept every bit of german books and notes i ever had (12 years worth)....and i think i have some lists of prepositions and how verbs follow them somewhere...i know i used to have them memorized....eventually you just kinda get a "feel" for things...like young children do when they learn their native language....at that point i stopped trying to label things (cases, gender, etc) which was probably a mistake...*ALWAYS* learn case and gender with new vocab! if you dont it will follow you for a LONG LONG time....i cant stress this enough! it is key to learning adj and verb endings! so please learn from my mistake :)

anyways...ill try and dig them up sometime soon....dunno when thatll be tho cuz right now my house is half packed as we ripped down our ceilings last weekend.....gonna have some contractors running around all next week....i feel like im camping in my own home....ugh....

--jt

ps as i remember it germanI was pretty much pronunciation and the alphabet and basic info like the months ad some history/culture...stuff like that....germanII is when we started grammar....so youre already doing more than alot of germanII students start with...still i wouldnt rush ahead....

[Hannu]

Haa haa haa! Jaa, Günteeer! Jaa jaa!

Das iht der komissar! Ho ho hoo, das polizei hund, Rex.

[BloodXero]

@eische, ok i get flexion now, "danke". i found out that the "irr" in my german-english dictionary (i didnt ever see them or realize what they meant until now. so what your saying is that the verb tenses that are useful to know or present, past particple, infinitive, and simple past ... and that the rest are fairly useless?

@jaytee, that's all ... culture, pronunciation, and alphabet for 170 something days of german I! wow, thats wierd. also, i think i got the "ch" thing down. one version is something like fish and the other thing is the hocking a loogy in the throat thingy. AM I RIGHT? i was listening to my rammstein cd and the cd that came with the book and i heard a bunch and then just tried to immitate it.

PS. can someone check this sentence for grammar and "Vokabular" for me. i think i acctually got this one right (probably not though):

Die fette alte Katze hat auf den metallischen Zaun gekastriert!

im not sure on adding the "e" on the "fett" and the "alt" because i dont know if you add something to the end of every adjective that follows an article before a noun.

PSS. does anyone know the simple past tense (the "-ed" ending in english i think) of the words "trauern" (mourn) and zerstören (destroy). and i dont have a translation in my dictionary for the adjective "those".

[eische]

Originally posted by BloodXero
@eische, ok i get flexion now, "danke". i found out that the "irr" in my german-english dictionary (i didnt ever see them or realize what they meant until now. so what your saying is that the verb tenses that are useful to know or present, past particple, infinitive, and simple past ... and that the rest are fairly useless?

ah, well: the Present is essential, the Simple Past (though running low in usage) too - mostly to understand the strong verb-transformation -, the Past Perfect is the past mostly used plus a sort of Perfect Perfect (past perfect with habe+participle, perfect perfect with hatte+participle, that's lying farther behind), so the Infinitve (which is also the present participle) is essentiell to built simple subordinate clauses and the Simple Future (werde+participle)...so these are the tenses you should focus on (present, simple past, past perfect (perfect perfect - later), future 1 - including infinitive(present participle) and past participle), because they are the most used ones.
At some point you have to learn the others, too, but you could leave that for now - don't learn everything in one great effort, do it step by step...ok?

@jaytee, that's all ... culture, pronunciation, and alphabet for 170 something days of german I! wow, thats wierd. also, i think i got the "ch" thing down. one version is something like fish and the other thing is the hocking a loogy in the throat thingy. AM I RIGHT? i was listening to my rammstein cd and the cd that came with the book and i heard a bunch and then just tried to immitate it.

hehe, but you already experienced that pronoucation is something to occupy you for several hours... :p
btw: I don't know how you pronounce "fish", but that's not the "ch" - try it with the over-pronounced first "h" in "huge", "Hugh"...the sound in "fish" is the german "sch", which is done also for "s" if it's followed by "t" (st-ein) or "p" (sp-rache).


PS. can someone check this sentence for grammar and "Vokabular" for me. i think i acctually got this one right (probably not though):

Die fette alte Katze hat auf den metallischen Zaun gekastriert!

:D , what the hell... - ok, grammer is quite fine here, exept the "gekastriert", no "ge-" (kastrieren, kastrierte, kastriert - it's a regular with an exeption :p, because it's a foreign-word), but what should that mean:
would be ok, if the cat did piss on the fence, but - now another grammer thing - "castrate"(same in english, I guess, because it lies in the meaning) is no active verb, that is, it's nothing you can just do. It's always something that is done to someone, so it's a passive word - it needs an acc.-object (who do I castrate - opps, haha, ok I don't do such things ever :D ). So if the cat castrated itself, you've got to insert the reflexiv pronoun "sich" and then the case of the object is changing too:

say you chose an active word like piss (pinkeln):

Die fette alte Katze hat auf den metallischen Zaun gepinkelt. - the auf-object (acc) says WHERE the cat did piss ON (wohin pinkeln)

with the passive castration:

Die fette alte Katze hat sich auf dem metallischen Zaun kastriert. - the auf-object (dat) says WHERE/WITH WHAT the castration HAPPENED (wodurch kastriert)


...the thing with the endings on the adjectives:
yes, all words belonging to the noun that rules the noun-phrase show their belonging by being flected in the same case, that means you have to add endings to all adjectives added to the noun - this is ok here, in both cases...


trauern (reg.), trauerte, getrauert
zerstören (reg.), zerstörte, zerstört

"zer-" is an affix(Vorsilbe) that makes a "ge" on the participle unneccassary: ent-täuschen (disappoint, reg.), ent-täuschte, ent-täuscht, ver-geben (forgive, irr.) ver-gab, ver-geben - on some affixes - mostly "vor-" - the "ge" is still there, but then it's not added in front, but between the original affix and the root-verb: vor-schlagen (suggest, irr.), schlug vor, vor-ge-schlagen, vorher-sagen (predict, reg.), sagte vorher, vorher-ge-sagt...


these - "diese", directly pointing at the things spoken of
those - "jene", pointing at things farther away

[BloodXero]

i guess i didnt get the "ch" right. im guessing that it'll be a while. anyways ... what i would have to say is:


"The metal fence castrated the fat old cat." or

"The fat old cat castrated himself on the metal fence."

instead of:

"The fat old cat was castrated on the metal fence."

what forms of trauern and zerstören should i use to translate my signature. the bolded ones?

and i should use "diese" instead of "jene" because im speaking directly about the guards.

[eische]

Originally posted by BloodXero
anyways ... what i would have to say is:


"The metal fence castrated the fat old cat." or

"The fat old cat castrated himself on the metal fence."

instead of:

"The fat old cat was castrated on the metal fence."


well, I guess, I just give you the translations of the sentences above, because, you'll see, that it's easier than you think:

1: Der Metall-Zaun kastrierte die fette alte Katze.

2: Die fette alte Katze kastrierte sich selbst auf dem Metall-Zaun.
(maybe better "with (here: an)" the metal fence, because that's the instrument of castration, isn't it, so:
Die fette alte Katze kastrierte sich selbst an dem Metall-Zaun.)

3. Die fette alte Katze wurde auf dem Metall-Zaun kastriert.
(but here the question remains - even in english - by whom or what was the cat castrated, it sounds a bit incomplete)

what forms of trauern and zerstören should i use to translate my signature. the bolded ones?

well, you asked for the simple past forms (I bolded them), and I gave you, what you will find in any dictionary (infinitive, 3rd pers. sing. simple past, past participle), so you have to abstract from that one onward, but wait, your sig...
...ahhh, Ireland (why do you always chose the tricky ones - from you're position :rolleyes: )


-Ireland: The whole country mourned as the last pub was destroyed.


Das ganze Land trauerte, als der letzte Pub zerstört wurde.
(well, again the thing you would struggle with is the passive-form of the pub-destroying, you do this - as you see - with the participle and the past of "werden" in the flected, auxiliary position)

and i should use "diese" instead of "jene" because im speaking directly about the guards.

yepp...

[BloodXero]

ok, thanx for all your help. one more thing...

is there anyway to find out if a verb is strong or weak from the infinitive form so you can make the past participle?

[eische]

Originally posted by BloodXero
ok, thanx for all your help. one more thing...

is there anyway to find out if a verb is strong or weak from the infinitive form so you can make the past participle?


hmm, didn't you ask that before :confused:

so sorry, but no, you don't know

well, if you meet a verb in a text (written in the past) and you see a form with "t(e)", you will know it's a weak one, because that's how the so called regular past is made, you insert a "t" between the root and the present-ending of the verb:

ich sag-e, ich sag-t-e
du sag-st, du sag-te-st
er/sie/es sag-t, er/sie/es sag-t-e

wir sag-en, wir sag-t-en
ihr sag-t, ihr sag-te-t
sie sag-en, sie sag-t-en

and if you know that, you know that the past participle is made with "ge-root-t"(ge-sag-t)..., but from an infinitve as well as from a present-from, no, you don't know...

...that's the reason, why even native speakers of german sometimes tend to invent some stupid forms (beware don't learn!!!), like:

"ich frug" as a past from "fragen". They make a pseudo-strong out of a normally weak verb ("ich fragte" is correct), but they will built the participle still correctly following the weak-rules: "ge-frag-t"...

or they treat a strong verb like a weak one, like "backen, buk, gebacken", but they say "er backte" - again they use the correct participle...
...it's strange...

[BloodXero]

no, before i asked if you could between regular and irregular. because in my dictionary it only says if it's irregular or regular. but i dont know about weak or strong.

[BloodXero]

another thing ... i found a great site (so i think). ive been using so many sites lately and i ve been looking all over. i found this one and i think its great. can you check it out for me:

www.ielanguages.com/German.html

also, if you just go to the ielanguages part its got a bucnah different others.

[jaytee]

good god you guys have been busy the last couple days!

lol....blood...id really like to know where you come up with such things.....cats castrating themselves....hahahaha

hmmmmm....i find eische is covering grammar really well....of course its to be expected....lol....
as ive been reading thru this a couple things came to mind...
for instance...the difference between weak and strong....
as you go thru germanII and beyond...they will make you memorize conjugations (in many tenses...theyll start in present and add as you go)....alot of verbs follow patterns (there are exceptions tho)...but as you memorize them...you will notice the patterns...and the ones that take the "t" ending you will recognize as weak right away....our teacher always referred to the "t" as a "crutch"....because its too "weak " to walk on its own...


also...about ich=fish....please listen harder....i think if i remember right rammstein does sound more like "ISH"....its a dialectical thing i think......but it always drove me nuts.....eische...is rammstein from the southern part of germany maybe? alot of students here in the usa say "ish"....i sooo hated that...even after years in college with german professors some STILL said "ish" and of course they got away with it....it was never viewed as a big problem....however....heres the thing
for some people it sounds like "ish"....its like they never hear how to say it right....you must form your tongue in a way we dont do in english for any letter...try humping your tongue up in the middle a bit but touching the tip to the inside of your bottom teeth....and just blowing air out strongly ......kind of lock your jaw up but not too much cuz you are better off with free movement of your jaw...dont put your lips together at all.....it always made me think of the way people imitate a hissing cat....im sure you will get it when you start class if you dont get it now..its not that hard...its just...something new...

oh and also....the "sich" thing....some things are more obvious...like if the cat castrates himself...obviously you must have a word to mean "itself" in the sentence....but also some verbs have a reflexive quality as well...and it wont be so obvious because we dont say it in english....one more thing to look for in your dictionary when you are hunting for a word...so its prolly a good idea to look thru the front of your dictionary at all the keys for all those neat little abbreviations they stick inside the definition....
also....be aware that the german language is much more specific than english....alot of times certain verbs apply to only certain subjects....where we tend to use our verbs much more loosely....i will try and think of a good example to better explain that...but just because you find a word in the dictionary for your english word doesnt mean it will fit your subject....i always cross it backwards from the german to english section as well ....looking for confirmation....so i know which one to use better....

and YES you will spend a whole year with what will seem to be very simple things....typically germanII is the weedout year...the year they figure out who will go on in german and who they will recommend spanish to...lol....and you forget something...there is ALOT to cover when it comes to culture...we are talking about a people who really populated most of europe for centuries...not just one little country! ...different "tribes" if you will...and who had huge influence on europe and other countries too (like the US...duh..lol) and have traditions, architecture, and literature that dates back many times over the age of our own nation......essentially youll cover german culture for years to come and barely scratch the surface....dont confuse modern day germany with studying german....it is much broader a topic than that...and yeah....it will be really cool still :)

--jt

[eische]

hehehe, thanx Jaytee, this bloody degree has to be worth something...

@ bloodxero: oh, then I misunderstood, I thought you were asking, if it were predictable to say wich verb is strong or weak, not if there is a way to see it at the verb, if flected...
...oh, and just some vocabulary: strong is the same as irregular (just irregular is a pretty wrong expression, the first one to drop if you study german - so sorry), and weak is the same as regular...

@ jaytee: on this one, beware of rules or rule-making when it comes to strong verbs that might be very misleading - merely as misleading as guessing the translation of same-looking words to be of the same meaning, although it may be right in a lot of cases, because english and german have the same origins, but that will only work, if you have insight to the history of both languages...

@ bloodxero: I roughly looked over the first chapter of that site there. Looks nice, discovered a lot of things I have given you in pm's though...:p (I gave a different case-pattern though, nom, gen, dat, acc - because the cases are also counted in german and this is how they are referred to 1.-nom, 2.-gen, 3.-dat and 4.-acc).
One thing I found very confusing is the pronouncation-transcription, for example: it says the german "e" represents an english "eh"-sound...huh...but don't you usually say {i}, when an "e" is written and why should an extra "h" stop that...well the sound of a german "e" is the one from english "better".
Then it's given to be represented to be "eh", but in the examples it is written down differently, never saw a single "eh" there, so that's tricky...
...but nice examples and nice charts there (btw: on the plural it says it's unpredictable and then the rules show the predictabilty of the plural brilliantly well, of course there are exceptions (especially when it comes to foreign-words), but you have them in english too)...
...again it says "ch" would sound like "sh" and that's not true...

@jaytee on this: yeah, there are a lot of dialects (some even counting as different languages, because not just the pronouncation, but grammer and vocabulary change as well - some have just one article like in english, some have a third plural and that - my dialect has an "ing"-form for example: ich würde nie sagen "ich esse gerade", ich sage "ich bin am essen" - warning Bloodxero, do not learn this ;) ) and some say "isch" for "ich" - not only in the south. Around Köln poeple exchange the "ch"/"sch"-sounds, they will say "De Kirchboum steht vor de Kirsch" instead of "Der Kirschbaum steht for der Kirche" (the cherrytree stands(grows) before the church).
But the thing to learn is the standard. Rammstein is not from the south (and their "ch" is a standard one, it only sounds different because it's sung, enlengthend therefor), the members come from the former east-german part, near Berlin...

...oh, and by the way, Bloody, it just struck me: lyrical texts are not the optimal thing to look for grammer, and sung words are pronounced differently than regularly spoken ones...maybe you try and get a normal prose-book for the reading and a CD-book, for the listening - maybe the same books, so you could read along, or something...

[eische]

whoooohooo, just did some more scrolling down this tutorial-page and came along the anthems, hahahahahahahahahaha...


...well, *calms down a bit* knowing the anthem is really of no great importance.
I mean, if I can guess from all of the US-movies, you sing your anthem at a lot of occasions and more than one time a week...

well, germans don't, no way, the anthem's always a bit uncomfortable and embarrassing (peinlich!!!) and the only not official-political occasion it is played at (not always sung though) is at international football(soccer)-games, so don't care... :D :D jahahahaha, huhuhuh :D :D *can't stop laughing* hehehe, ohahaha *rolls of the chair*...

[BloodXero]

@ both of you 2, you guys have been great help! its amazing when you pick out the shriveled up, little, peas in this world you find some people like you guys. people dont really stop to help people this much these days. i thank you for your time.

the "ch", its always something...


...in addition to the "ch". its a tricky one i tell ya.

about, the site ... i dont use that pronunciation, i go by what me "For Dummies" book says and theres alot of words on the site that are on the CD.

ive decided to take it slowly now, go through German I, learn the pronunciation properly, know the most important forms of words (atleast). and im gonna work at it slowly.


PS. thanx again for all your help.

[Mr B]

@ Bloodzero, why would cows destroy the pubs?

[eische]

keine Sache Bloodxero, you're welcome...

...you already have a huge pack of things to learn and to work upon, if I go past this thread...

but, like with guitar-playing, find something to keep the fun up, like a book, a tv-series or a german radio-station, something to destract you from the pure dry grammar...see it's always a help, just to listen to a foreign language, even if you don't understand every word, but just to get the feeling for the flow of the language and the specific melody of it...

the melody and the grammar are a thing - well I think and hear it like that - strongly connected: if you have a good ear for the melody of a language, you may listen to yourself speaking and get a feeling for constructing the sentence correctly or not, just by ear...

...and if any more questions come up, just post...


good luck

[BloodXero]

@ Mr B, its the night of the KILLER (destructive if you want) COWS.

thanx again for all tips and help.

[jaytee]

absolutely!
i think the thing that helped me most was all the reading...i skipped some classes in college cuz i had so much in high school...and therefore the next step was some literature and history courses...which required ALOT of reading of course...i think i enjoyed most the class i took which was mostly postwar literature....i like brecht alot...hes very good...
also an idea....go looking for a german chat (yahoo or icq maybe)...get into some light conversation....im sure if you explain you are learning the language you can find someone else who is very helpful as well...and youd learn some culture too prolly!

anyhow good luck blood...i think you are off to a strong start...dont get in too big a rush....youve got your whole life to speak the language :)

--jt

[Perfect4th]

One of the longest threads and most of I can't read. It most be great to know another language!

Peace!

[discoglen]

im pretty sure some of you guys just did my homework for me

[eische]

:D don't tell me, you're a german-learner too discoglen... hell i never thought it was so popular :p

[jaytee]

actually...yeah it is...here in the states anyways
if you plan to go to college it is smart to take at least two years of foreign language in high school.....chances are you will have to take it in college as well...
german is one of the most popular at the high school i went to....only spanish was more popular...and thats cuz its easier.....german is a challenge....but our classes were packed until finally 3rd year the attendance started backing off....

[Mr B]

moi, je prefere le francais, une langue belle, le mot pour "butterfly" en francais, c'est "papillon" une mot fantastique, mais en allemande, le mot pour "butterfly", c'est impossible dire, IMPOSSIBLE! (l'allemande, c'est une langue laid, pourquoi choisir l'allemande?)

[eische]

@ jaytee: oh, Wunder über Wunder :D - well, spanish is not just easier, but it has more native-speakers all over the world (especially, if living in the south of the usa, I guess, it's neccessary to learn it), so a comparibly little country like germany being so popular, when it comes to language-learning, is nice, but a huge surprise...

@ Mr.B: oh, really??? - I always thought french to be one of the most hard and aggressive sounding languages around, just the right ones for hiphop and punk - all these harsh aspirated konsonants and sudden stops, and those double-negation-thingy, huuuhhhh...anyway, I don't see »papillon« being so much nicer than »Schmetterling« or »butterfly«, hehe

[Mr B]

@ eische, have you HEARD French rappers, they're so funny, at least German metallers get taken seriously, I suppose.

also "papillon" .... "smetterling" come on, have you no sense of aesthetics whatsoever? which word does better justice to the delicate beauty of our only non-hideous insect, I ask you?

[eische]

yepp, I heard french rappers, that's how I came to dicision that the language does sound good, at least on these occasion...

on the Schmetterling - well, as I said all of those words are quite equal...none does really catch the beauty and fragility of the animal (I think mariposa does though) all of them refer more to the movement, they all sound like a battering of clapping wings and not like glistening colours...
...well and I do have a feeling for aestethics - maybe it's just a different one than you, but that doesn't mean I have none...

[jaytee]

im kinda partial to "schmetterling"....it reminds me of our little girl running thru our back field chasing one when she was about 3....see it?

--jt

[Mr B]

I suppose it really depends on how you view the animal itself, to me "smetterling" is far too fricative, the way the vowels are constantly being chopped up by hard consonants makes it sound very mechanical. But "papillon" (pronounced "pah-pee-on") is very smooth and the dum dee dum rhythm of it is much closer to the fluttering (there's another great word) of the butterfly's wings. I also find it very difficult to say "smetterling" without spitting a bit.

[The Fury]

"fricative"

I've just learnt a new word. Not just German, but English lessons, all in one thread!

[eische]

fricative??? - so you have you're problems with the »sch«, hehe...
... but fricatives are not neccessarily hard, like (beware Fury :D ) tenues and plosives are for example. If you look at russian you will notice, that there are really softer than soft fricatives...


...oh and, if you like the word »fluttering«...well, that's very much alike the pronouncation of Schmetterling, from the rhythm-side (btw: it's also a dum dee dumm-rhythm ;) ) and the consonants : fricative, labial, vowl, tenues, vowl, labial, vowl, nasal...

on that »papillon«: plosive, vowl, plosive, vowl, nasal is just as hard cut by the explosive noises made by the »p«s, as the tenues cutting Schmetterling in halfs...

...have you ever heard the word spoken by a native-speaker??? - oh, and what do you think of »mariposa«???

[Mr B]

but a plosive is so much easier than a tenue or a fricative on the ear! although I take your point about fluttering, it's closer to flapping when you let a synaesthete like me loose on it. For some strange reason I also spit less when I say a plosive than the double T sound in "smetterling".

[eische]

Originally posted by Mr B
For some strange reason I also spit less when I say a plosive than the double T sound in "smetterling".

:D really :confused: what about the double t in fluttering, you spit there too??? - sorry, but I first thought it would be the schm, because konsonant-clusters like this are the normal pain in the ass for german-learners...
...anyway, we have different hearing connotations then, to my ear a pap is just as hard as a tat...