Help me with CAGED

[iommi]

Can i play any major scale or its relative minor using the CAGED scale forms (say B Major) ?How is it that in the G major scale shown the first scale shape shown turns out to be a E shape,Why can't it be any other shape?IS it some sort of a rule or is it ur choice?I can form a major pentatonic scale making necessary adjustments to these scales ,can't i?

If i want to learn C dorian throughout the neck how do i go about doing it?

[BluesPulp]

Hey iommi
{quote}Can i play any major scale or its relative minor using the CAGED scale forms (say B Major){/quote}
Yes. If you've learnt your major scale in B, then move down two frets to A. It'll play the same on any fret.

{quote}How is it that in the G major scale shown the first scale shape shown turns out to be a E shape,Why can't it be any other shape?IS it some sort of a rule or is it ur choice?{/quote}
I'm assuming your speaking of this page, and the G diagram.
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/major-caged/index.htm
That is a G barr chord. If you'll look at the two 'E' Strings and the 'B' string, you'll notice they are also part of that 'E' pattern you speak of. Use your index finger to 'barre' across the fret board, concentrating on holding down the two 'E' strings and the 'B' string with it. Use your other three fingers to hold down the 'E' pattern to complete the 'barre' chord.

E 3 Index
B 3 Index
G 4 Middle
D 5 Ring
A 5 Pinkie
E 3 Index

You can move this pattern up and down the neck, and play in any chord from E to Eb.
If you place your indext finger across the 5th fret like so;

E 5
B 5
G 6
D 7
A 7
E 5

You have an 'A Major'.


{quote}I can form a major pentatonic scale making necessary adjustments to these scales ,can't i?{/quote}
Yes.


As for C Dorian, unless someone has the tab written out and posts it for ya, I'll do it for ya and post it. There are seven modal positions including the Dorian mode to be able to play the neck, like you want.

There is a name and postion for each
Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

When you know these, the Major, Minor, Penatonic, Blues and whatever other scales you want to fit under your belt, you'll have a pretty good foundation for theory. All the modes will fit together then you can run the neck, up and down. :)

Give me about two days to post those modes as I'm kinda busy. That'll give ya time to practice what's up above.
Ok?


Once you learn the Dorian Mode, you'll be able to play it in any key by moving it up and down the neck, just like I showed you with the 'G' & 'A' barre chord.

If ya don't understand something I posted, tell me and I'll reexplain it.

Good luck iommi

[iommi]

Weel most of the things are quite fine
But The question is why is G major scale played at the 3rd fret with an E shape and why not some other shape?

Thanks for ur help

[BluesPulp]

Originally posted by iommi
Weel most of the things are quite fine
But The question is why is G major scale played at the 3rd fret with an E shape and why not some other shape?

I think I see what your asking now.
Are you refering to the diagrams on this page;
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/major-caged/index.htm
where Shawn is talking about the "G scale based around the E form"?

If not, let me know again.
If you are, then:

There are many shapes to use for the same scale in G.
The diagram on that link shows just one shape, the shape is refered to as the cage. With in that cage is the basic E chord shape. That E chord shape is like a magic shape, in that it lets you keep the same position as you move up the neck.

If you look at the first diagram on that link, under the title 'E Form', you can see the E pattern in it. This is the form most widely used because it is easier to lean and use.

Let me show you.
This first scale is the one on the link. G Caged in E form.


0 1 2 3 4 5
E-----|---X|---X |-----|---X|
B-----|-----|---X|-----|---X|
G-----|---X|-----|---X|---X|
D-----|---X|-----|---X|---X|
A-----|---X|---X|-----|---X|
E-----|-----|---X|-----|---X|

Well, this isn't as pretty as Shawns, but you can see it's the same.

Now, check this one out.


2 3 4 5 6 7
E-----|-----|---X|-----|---X|---X|
B-----|-----|---X|-----|---X|---X|
G-----|---X|---X|-----|---X|-----|
D-----|---X|---X|-----|---X|-----|
A---X|-----|---X|-----|---X|-----|
E---X|-----|---X|-----|---X|-----|

If you look at the lower four stings on the 3 and 4, frets and all the stings on the 5 fret, as in the E Form G scale.
This second diagram is the Ionian mode form of G Major.
They have the same notes, just moved up the neck a bit.

The G scale in the Dorian mode begins on the 5th fret. Like this.


3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
E-----|-----|-----|---X|---X|-----|---X|
B-----|-----|-----|---X|---X|-----|---X|
G-----|---X|-----|---X|-----|---X|-----|
D-----|---X|-----|---X|-----|---X|-----|
A-----|---X|-----|---X|-----|---X|-----|
E-----|---X|-----|---X|---X|-----|-----|

As you can see, the G Maj scale using the E Form is a lot easier to play. When you hear of someone being locked in a cage when they play, it means they use the E form of what ever key they are in just about all the time. By learning the G scale in other postions you'll be able to play through out the neck like you wanted.

I know this is hard to learn. It took me years to finally understand it. But if you play these over and over you'll soon see and feel the link between them.

Again iommi, if you don't understand what I'm talking about, tell me.
Or if I misunderstood what you wanted to know, tell me.
I really like helping people and will spend as much time as it takes till you understand.

Ok?

I'll post a few more positions on up the neck for you as time permits.
Oh, if you want to play these scales in C, take the G caged scale and move it from the 3rd fret up to the 8th fret, follow the caged C with the second diagram, the Ionian scale, then the Dorian will follow.

Later.

[iommi]

I am indeed looking at the page u were talking about.i find it sort of ok now.

Can u tell me what would happen if i play the d Form at the 3rd fret .It turns to have its root as F but i can't recognize it having the formula of any mode.

So is the E form the basic major scale form ?After finding where the e form of any key is ,If i play the mode shapes throughout the neck ,am i supposed to have played the scale throughout the neck?

The various forms are also shapes of various modes.But then where are the rest of the mode shapes?

Please excuse me if i am asking idiotic questions

Thanks for ur help

[BluesPulp]

Originally posted by iommi I am indeed looking at the page u were talking about.i find it sort of ok now.

Hey Iommi. Glad you have a grasp on that. Keep working on it and soon you'll understand it even better.


Can u tell me what would happen if i play the d Form at the 3rd fret .It turns to have its root as F but i can't recognize it having the formula of any mode.

By playing the D form on the fifth fret:
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/major-caged/page2.htm
and using the 'root' notes, you'd be playing the G scale.
If you were to drop down two frets and play the D form on the third fret, you'd be playing in the F scale.
If you were to move up the neck to the seventh fret and play the D form, you'd be playing the A scale.
As you move up or down the neck, using the same form, you change the 'key' your playing in.


So is the E form the basic major scale form ?After finding where the e form of any key is ,If i play the mode shapes throughout the neck ,am i supposed to have played the scale throughout the neck?

Yes, Iommi. The E form is the basic form. The same hold true for this form as the D form. If you were to play the E form on the third fret, you'd be playing the G scale. If you dropped down to the first fret, you'd be playing the E form in the F scale. Likewise, if you were to move up to the fifth fret and played the E form, you'd be playing in the A scale.



The various forms are also shapes of various modes.But then where are the rest of the mode shapes?

I can tell your eager to learn. That is great. You ask some really good solid questions.
I will finish the other mode diagrams for you in a day or two.
Hang loose, ok? I'm trying to find someway to make pictures for you instead of those examples I made in my last post. I'm looking for a prog to make music gifs.
I just though of something. Shawn may have all those diagrams in his scales section. I'll check that out tomorrow. It's been a while since I was in there.


Please excuse me if i am asking idiotic questions

Iommi, you ask any question you want to. There are some very good people here with a lot of knowedge and experience in and on music.
I'm basiclly a player, not a teacher. I'm learning how to help people. If you ask something and I don't know the answer, someone else around here will know it and jump in to help. If I tell you something that isn't right, they will correct me, I hope. So ask away. We are all here to help each other learn. I go to the gear and styles forum and learn about stuff I'm not familiar with. No one knows it all. Besides, sharing information is what life is all about.


Thanks for ur help.

It's a pleasure and a good feeling for me to beable to help someone. Your more than welcome.

[iommi]

Thanks for the detailed replies.Things are making better sense and as u said i should understad it even better if i keep on working on it

[BluesPulp]

Your more than welcome, iommi.
I can't seem to say what I want in a few words. I hope it's understandable.
Will post more later.