intervals

[existence]

Lets say you thought of a tune in your head and attempt to play it on your guitar. U played the first note. From there you played the 2nd note by figuring out the interval between the 1st and 2nd note. From here onwards, do you try to play the rest of the melody by trying to figure out the interval between the notes with respect to the root (first) note or the interval between the note you intend to play now and the note you just played previously?

I find the former method is more difficult than the latter, but which method would be better?

[zKing]

Personally I do more of a combination of the two.

Example: The 5th and usually the 4th are fairly "characteristic" to me, so I can usually pick them out of a melody easily...jump right to them without the relation of the previous note. Ditto if I'm playing in a non Ionian mode and come apon one of that mode's "odd" notes.

The more I think about it...
If I already know the scale I can USUALLY guess correctly (vs. the tonic). But, if I'm just starting from a "blind" melody I will often do more of the "vs. previous note" thing until I figure out the scale. Once I know the scale, I can usually do much better at the "vs. the tonic" thing.

The better my ears get the more I do it vs. the tonic I think. Also the less concience thought involved. I'm able to "guess" correctly most of the time and jump right to it (thank Mr. Subconcience for doing all the work).

Hmmm, perhaps it's a combination? If I hear a note that is a lot higher than the previous one that tells me one thing, gets me in the right ball park (within 5 frets, say)...if it also has that "minor" flavor I might guess its a "flat 3rd" of the scale vs. the 4th and 2nd on either side...see what I mean?

This is why I find it so important to know the scale degrees of all the box patterns, BTW.

This has REALLY peaked my curiosity...Can others please respond with how they mentally go about this play-by-ear process? I'm also going to ask some of the really good "by-ear" players I know...although I really have to dig with them because it has become so "subconcience" to them that they have a REALLY hard time articulating how they do it.

hehe, sorry for the "stream of thought" post ;).

[John Prophet]

Just off the top of my head I would think to just find the first note would be the hard part...after that, if you can hear it in your head, you should be able to figure out the rest in about 20 seconds. In other words find what "key" it is in and then you will know the scale and from that point the melody should be easy to find.

JP

[zKing]

Originally posted by John Prophet
Just off the top of my head I would think to just find the first note would be the hard part...after that, if you can hear it in your head, you should be able to figure out the rest in about 20 seconds. In other words find what "key" it is in and then you will know the scale and from that point the melody should be easy to find.

JP

Agreed, it's easy to "figure it out", but speeding this process up to the point where you can think up phrases on-the-fly and play them back at the next chord change, without a mistake...that requires a lot of practice.

[existence]

Guess who comes to my rescue again, its KING and JP!!!!!
Hmm its really a bit hard to use the note VS tonic method because I have to constantly keep the sound of the tonic in my head while I m figuring out the rest of the stuff, it kinda slips out of my head during the process. Its quite mentally tedious for me to keep trying to recall the tonic hehe.
Anyway about finding out the key and then knowing the scale, i think makes it more easier to churn out the melody. But isn't this method abit mechanical in a way that you are not making full use of your ears to figure out but rather depend on the diatonic pattern to work your way through. Is my train of thought correct pls correct me?

[zKing]

Not nessisarily mechanical...

Let's see if I can break it down in a semi-real-world scenerio:

You are invited to jam with some friends...the band starts to play a song and you know you are going to get a nod to play a solo at some point...

First task: Find the tonic. If you can see the band playing this can be pretty easy...look at the bass player's fretting hand. Play along for a bit.

Second task: Figure out the scale...is it obviously a "blues" scale song? Can you pick out some other notes? Let's pretend is an A minor (Aolean).

Third task: Pick up on the melody. Dream up some variations and other phrases. ("Sing" something in your head along with the tune.) Learn the progression and the timing, too.

As you are getting to the solo:
Pick a start and end...both time (chord change) and notes (1 and 5 say).

Now if I know these things. We are in good shape...

As the solo plays out:
If the next note I want to play is "close" and up, I know it's probably just the next note on the scale. (example)

If the next note is far away, you usually know its within say "these five frets on this string"...this is where you go "ah, but this sounds like the 5th" so you pick out the 5th in that range.

This is where the "note vs. tonic" thing comes in.

It's not a strict relationship, its a "color" thing. All notes (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, octive) have a sonic "color" when played in a song/against a progression. You don't hear "2 whole steps above root" you hear "that major sounding thing that isn't too far away but higher"....AH! The 3rd!.

On scales:
Knowing the scale whittles out a bunch of "unlikely" notes. Gives your fingers a relatively safe place to go...especially if you miss and don't hit the note you wanted, at least you'll hit something in the scale and it won't sound TOO bad.

Also in the search for the note you want...it narrows down the suspects. Instead of thinking "it can be any of these notes within these 5 frets" you get it down to "In those 5 frets it can be one of these two scale tones, either the 5th or the 6th...and it doesn't sound like the 5th".

Am I making any sense?

Over time you will also build little "blocks" of good sounding stuff...not whole "licks" really, but just tiny bits and peices that you know how to insert into a solo at the right place.

And alot of this becomes more and more subconcience the more you do it. Like the "G chord"...after a lot of practice you don't even really have to think much about it any more...

[John Prophet]

Originally posted by zKing
Not nessisarily mechanical...

Let's see if I can break it down in a semi-real-world scenerio:

You are invited to jam with some friends...the band starts to play a song and you know you are going to get a nod to play a solo at some point...

First task: Find the tonic. If you can see the band playing this can be pretty easy...look at the bass player's fretting hand. Play along for a bit.

Second task: Figure out the scale...is it obviously a "blues" scale song? Can you pick out some other notes? Let's pretend is an A minor (Aolean).

Third task: Pick up on the melody. Dream up some variations and other phrases. ("Sing" something in your head along with the tune.) Learn the progression and the timing, too.

As you are getting to the solo:
Pick a start and end...both time (chord change) and notes (1 and 5 say).

Now if I know these things. We are in good shape...

As the solo plays out:
If the next note I want to play is "close" and up, I know it's probably just the next note on the scale. (example)

If the next note is far away, you usually know its within say "these five frets on this string"...this is where you go "ah, but this sounds like the 5th" so you pick out the 5th in that range.

This is where the "note vs. tonic" thing comes in.

It's not a strict relationship, its a "color" thing. All notes (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, octive) have a sonic "color" when played in a song/against a progression. You don't hear "2 whole steps above root" you hear "that major sounding thing that isn't too far away but higher"....AH! The 3rd!.

On scales:
Knowing the scale whittles out a bunch of "unlikely" notes. Gives your fingers a relatively safe place to go...especially if you miss and don't hit the note you wanted, at least you'll hit something in the scale and it won't sound TOO bad.

Also in the search for the note you want...it narrows down the suspects. Instead of thinking "it can be any of these notes within these 5 frets" you get it down to "In those 5 frets it can be one of these two scale tones, either the 5th or the 6th...and it doesn't sound like the 5th".

Am I making any sense?

Over time you will also build little "blocks" of good sounding stuff...not whole "licks" really, but just tiny bits and peices that you know how to insert into a solo at the right place.

And alot of this becomes more and more subconcience the more you do it. Like the "G chord"...after a lot of practice you don't even really have to think much about it any more...

Dude, if I thought that much about it Id NEVER play a solo!!!!!

hehe. I have found (not just in guitar) that overthinking something just leads to stiffness and totally destroys your natural feel etc. if I go to the gym and totally worry about perfect form to the exreme I find I cant lift as much as Jane Fonda...but when I relax and just be more natural, like an athlete, then it works out much better. Playing a solo is like swinging a golf club..its very hard to think much while doing it. And with music you can sort of tell when a guy is overthinking it. Like when he tries a little too hard to hit a certain note on a certain chord...yeah, he hits his note but the rest of it sounded crappy. To me when I watch hendrix or vanhalen or others on film, I just dont see them involved in much heavy thinking (F Zappa, im not sure about, hehe)

So the best thing is to overthink while you are practicing, take it all apart and microanalyze, but when you play, the best and hardest place to get to is where you just let it happen

Obviously different players have a different approach due to personalities, temperments etc etc. I doubt hendrix or vanhalen ever put that much thought into it...and in reality with blues based players in general I guess its safe to say they dont necesarily think of "melody"...they think more of "pattern" or "lick"...cuz you have to remember that there is more to good music than just melody..there is the huge aspect of rhythm, timing etc...also you can play quite emotionally yet not really be melodic...sometimes you just play some flash for emotion. And if you think about it, when you get to playing faster licks and runs, you cant even HEAR all the notes individually in the first place.

So I would think the "hearing it all in your head" would really come into play more in the slower "phrasing" parts of the solo...or even more when you are writing a song.

Now I will say that sometimes a cool note against a certain chord is enough on its own...and a smart thing to do when improvising or practicing is to definitely keep an ear out for stuff that sounded especially cool and then figure out WHY it was cool...what was the relationship between the lick and the chords that made it melodic. For instance the first part of the solo to vanhalen "girl gone bad" (from the album "1984") has an interesting sound...almost like it modulates...I have often wondered why it sounds so cool and so different from other VH stuff...so what I could do is figure out the chords and the lick (its a simple lick) and then I could figure out WHY it sounded like that...then I would have a good chance to repeat it myself or write a solo that featured that sound.

Now with VanHalen I PROMISE you that he doesnt know a lot of guitar music theory...if you go to him and say "play a lydian scale" he will look at you like you are ill. And I DOUBT you could play an A note say "hum me a maj6th interval" (though its possible)

But for instance, with Eric clapton he says he tries to write it in his head as he is playing it....and it must be admitted that he has a very melodic "singing" quality to his solos...like on Phil collins song "I wish it would rain down" or maybe "forever man".

David Gilmour may take the same approach.

Jimmy Page has said the after all the years of playing that he still cant play what he hears in his head though he feels he should be able to.

And of course we know that George benson and Buddy Guy often just sing the same lines they are playing on guitar.

Now John Sykes is one of my very favorites...on the whitesanke "whitesnake" album (1987) it could be said that overall his lead playing wasnt very melodic. really only "Is this love" had a killer melodic solo..the rest was fast very technical stuff (crying in the rain) . (adrian vandenburg did the solo on "here I go again" which WAS melodic. But on the Blue Murder cd's John Sykes was all kinds of melodic...maybe cuz he wrote all the songs and sang them..maybe cuz he had total control over it all...but it is interesting the difference in the albums. Songs like "out of love again" and the "jelly roll" have just killer heart wrenching emotional melodies and you would thin he heard it in his head while playing it.

So like I said there are many ways to skin a cat.

But for people like me who do more of letting their fingers to the walking...I have thought of a cool exercise.

Record a rhythm track to solo over...put some chord changes on it...not every chord in the book, but something melodic...and then take a note...like say the seventh of the scale...and just play that note over each chord to hear what it sounds like...do that with each note in the scale and maybe with outside notes to like in a major scale, try a minor third over each chord cuz someplace or another it will fit and sound really cool. I think it is a good exercise for getting sounds into your ears. And again if you find something cool..learn WHY its cool so you can recreate it....in other words you could find a little "formula" like over the 4 chord in a major key a unsion bend on the maj7th of the scale sounds really cool. (it does-I love sharp4th type sounds)

And also what you could do is play double stops over each chord...I remember once I had a chord progression...just a basic bland thing....and then I messed around hitting doublestops without really thinking what I was playing and I came up with some COOL stuff. Its hard to predict what they may sound like but when you hear something cool you can then go back and decipher it.

I remember doing a little exercise where I told myself that whatever lick I played, on the last note I was gonna jump up a seventh...so if my normal way of playing was gonna land me on an A note I would jump up to G. That was an interesting thing but I was never too systematic with exercises in general so I suppose it could be said I am more "feel" oriented.

I sometimes just "know" how to play certain things when I hear them and also when I hear stuff on the radio I say "oh yeah, I know that lick"...and it is probably just from time invested in playing as opposed to any study habits I ever had.

Most of us dont learn in a linear fashion..we usually pick up a bit here and a bit there and it just all assimilates little by little.

But by being self critical and identifying weaknesses we can come up with exercises or methods to improve in certain areas.

So to wind up a longgggg thread I would say that if you listen to your improvs and they sound boring meldically or they all sound too similar or you hit a lot of bad notes , hehe...then you should certainly do some "melodic" training or practice some of what zking said as far as his approach to soloing.

JP

[John Prophet]

Personally I think it would be a killer learning experience at this point for me to listen to some of Zkings playing since he has outlined his thinking process for us and it would be a cool thing for those interested to listen to my playing and see what it sounds like since you see a little of how I learned and how I approach it. That way the one learning could possibly see where his own personal approach will take him. For instance if I said "nah, dont worry about learning intervals by ear, it aint important, just do your scales" and then you checked out my playing and it sucked melodically, well then obviously my advice wouldnt work for what you want to achieve.

And in general it is wise to really learn about the guys whose playing you admire...learn how they approach it, how they learned, who they copied, how they hold the pick, do they put thumb behind neck or over it, etc etc etc. How do they set up the guitar. Do they have big or small hands. For instance if you want to play like Eddie but your guitar is setup like SRV's...forget it, it aint happening.

Sorry this was long...one of those stream of consciousness things.

Here are some links to my stuff...I would like to think that somehow it is pretty melodic even though I dont usually hear it in my head first...and I must admit that when playing live I play some really cool stuff by accident.

http://members.toast.net/jusjoking/

http://members.toast.net/jusjoking/Okaneechee Springtime.mp3

http://members.toast.net/jusjoking/Moody sunrise.mp3

http://members.toast.net/jusjoking/Release Me.mp3

http://members.toast.net/jusjoking/Desert Miles.mp3

http://members.toast.net/jusjoking/Kings X ish.mp3

http://members.toast.net/jusjoking/River_end_solo.mp3


Zking Id like to know what you think of any of it and id love to hear some of your playing...I imagine that you are quite melodic. Of my stuff obviously "blues intro" wasnt very melodic, it was more just fast and slippery but I think Demo song 1 had the melody while keeping the speed. overall i dont think of melody or speed per se..I think of EMOTION...thats my goal, get some feeling into it. "Play emotionally, let others define it later". And I would say a great example of how it CAN work out would be the little solo in the song called "crunchy melodic" it was one take improvised. To me its melodic and emotional...the last lick may not be PERFECT to my ears but the whole solo is one of my fave things I have done. So I would say a great way to approach it is like I did in that song..write a nice crunchy catchy rhythm part and when you go into the solo either have it modulate or go to some different chords...in other words if you listen to the solo in "crunchy melodic" you will figure out that half the melody of the solo IS IN THE CHORDS...thats very important...you have to set yourself up to be melodic...if you are playing over a dull chord thing I dont care WHAT you hear in your head, it aint gonna be but so interesting.

JP

[zKing]

hehe, ok, I give!

I was trying to show the general thought train...lots of it is sort of subconcience and fast/slippery. I agree that if you try to start out trying to think about ALL of this, you are going to have a hard time.

As for the other post, I don't have any music in web space yet. Also, after listening to your stuff I think you are better than I am anyhow which would muddle the "style" comparison. ;)

Let's not pass by the actual compliment: You've got some very nice stuff in there!!

Part of my bias probably comes from the fact that I'm a trained software engineer...if you include mathematics I've had about 14 years of hard analysis training forced into my head...so I tend to approach everything from that angle. I like to know how things tick. Probably not the best thing for musical creativity!

In the end, what really matters is that you play what sounds good.

Hmmm, perhaps I will get off my duff and put some tracks up on the web...

Until then if you want to hear some really fun guitar, this is a friend of mine who plays pretty darn good...(I pick his brain all the time):
Forrest Lee (http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/77/forrest_lee_jr.html)
Have a listen to "Second Hand Smoke". It's a bit country...but this guy knows how to play!


<edit>
Ok, after thinking about it for a bit, if I can get some time to do it I'll definately try putting some tracks up... Probably be a good learning experience for me.
Now if work will co-operate with this master plan...
</edit>

[John Prophet]

Well zKing I definitely WAS NOT trying to post up anything to prove how good I was or anything like that...(I just like feedback, like we all do) but I think it is interesting to hear a player after you have heard some of his thought processes. I just posted up that long post with just general comments on the subject from point of view...and it is important to know that "all roads lead to rome"..in other words there are plenty of ways to learn to improvise etc. With my long posts the best thing for everyone to do is just eat the meat and pick out the bones beacause im not perfecr AT ALL and my advice might not work for everyone in every situation.

I will admit that I have thought about interval training as far as teaching myself to hear intervals beter but as of yet laziness has prevented me. Maybe now is a good time for me to get crackin on it even though it will be like someone learning a c chord for the first time. (too bad there isnt enough time in life to do all the stuff you want too!)

So existence, just wade thru al this and try to find something useful in it! lol.

JP

[existence]

King thx for the mechanical breakdown, it must have been a pain to type it out. JP, btw what are double stops?? You have some good licks in there, thanks for sharing. The quality of recording is also good.
guess i will slowly find my way thru' all this , i wonder when will be the day where i could post up stuff like you do . :)

[John Prophet]

Well existence, thanks for the compliments...its always nice to hear that 15 years of playing hasnt all been wasted. If you stick with it and stay hungry to learn like you seem to be, you will probably be better than me no problem....hehe, I didnt start till I was almost 21, never played in school band, didnt know any musical terms etc etc etc... so if I can learn to be half decent anyone can. And one thing I can say to anyone learning guitar is that time with guitar in hand makes all the difference...even if it sometimes seems you aint gettin anywhere, you are...cuz improvement on guitar is NEVER linear...in other words it doesnt come at a steady pace, it tends to come in bunches...for instance I never really had a vibrato to speak of..then it seems I woke up one day and had one all of a sudden. Thats the way it works on guitar, you play and play and it seems you are in a rut but then all of a sudden, with no extra effort on your part, you are suddenly SEVERAL notches better than you were....stick with it and enjoy the ride and you will see what I mean.


Double stops are just two notes played at once....sometimes called diads (as opposed to triads)...like some of these which would be doublestops representing parts of an A major chord


e-----5------------------5----------------------------------
b---------or---5---or----5------------------2--------2-----
g-----6--------6-----------------------or------or----2------
d-----------------------------or---7--------2---------------
a----------------------------------7------------------------
e-----------------------------------------------------------

Country and bluegrass guys play tons of doublestops but also blues and rock.

JP

PS and remember that after 15 years of playing I have TONS of sucky crap that AINT posted up anywhere, lol and I have plenty of tapes of me playing at various levels of my development that no one will ever compliment, cuz it aint that good but it was necesary for me to keep trying.

PS to the PS...If you think any of that stuff is recorded well, I wish I could get a chance to do some real studio stuff with a producer, lol, cuz some of that stuff was just off the cuff thrown together stuff, but thanks a lot anyway dude, I appreciate it.

[zKing]

JP, I should also say thanks...your posts are definately on the list of reasons why I frequent this board...Even if we disagree at times! ;)

I'll second the point about "non-contiguous" learning...most of the time it comes in bursts. IMO, this is one of the reasons it is better to practice a little every day than to cram in one big session once a week...sometimes your brain just isn't in the mood to learn, but when it is it will soak it up like a sponge. Spreading your practice out gives you a better chance of hitting one of those good times. Also spreading it out a bit, can make you think about guitar more during the week...I've had interesting guitar ideas when driving, for example.

[John Prophet]

yeah I agree...its probably true that if you work on something a little every day, that your brain is working on it even while you are asleep. Like I remember once in the early 90's I was half asleep and had a dream about some George Lynch music and I was seeing all the notes in slo-mo and it seemed sooo easy to figure out. So somehow my brain was churning on that stuff....or at times I have dreamnt about playing some weird non existant instrument.

I also place great importance on writing stuff out...I have tonsssssss of stuff left over from my first 6 or 7 years of playing where I just wrote out every scale, arpeggio and progression possible...then I would do stuff like write out 2 chords everywhere on the neck, just to see where they intersected etc...of course I would do that while at work, hehe. Anything to stimulate the old noggin.

I guess variety is important..dont just do the same old rut over n over...mix it up and the learning process will keep moving on for a good long time.

JP

PS..thanks for the compliment zking...and remember, I learn from your posts and others too...hey, I wouldnt say we ever disagreed....we just approach stuff from a different viewpoint. (and besides, im the anal retentive EXTRA SUPER HYPER sensitive type so sometimes I get a little defensive...just ignore it.)