Module Playing....PLEASE HELP!

[GitarooMan]

I started learning theory about 6 months ago, and im trying to write this song, but im having a problem with it.

It is in the key of G ( G A B C D E F# )

The progression is a finger picking of A-D-G-A
2 5 1 2

If your going to improvise over that, it would be on 3rd fret, or G.
and The root would be A and it would be Dorian. Am I right in thinking that?

If im right, i would rather transpose it, to Locrian. How do I do this?????

[wild_axeman]

It looks like II V I II (all major chords) is this right?

If so the II (major) is a sub for the regular ii (minor)

The II and the V point to the I and the II afterwards seems to start the ball rolling all over again!

It seems like it's in G to me.

I think this is a case of "need more info",we need to see just how many times you are playing each chord and just how it's centered on A as the tonic.

I don't know about transposing it to Locrian if it'd even work!

[GitarooMan]

Its like supposed to kick into this metal, metallica like riff, so I didnt think it would sound right to improvise with dorian, i wanted something like locrian or mixolydian

[wild_axeman]

After rethinking your original progression A-D-G-A if it "IS" based on A,then it would be A Mixolydian.So A would be the V chord in the key of D major,D would be the I chord and G would be the IV chord or looking at it from A as the root it'd be I-IV-bVII which is how you'd want to look at it.So try playing A Mixolydian over it.This progression reminds me of "Badfish" by Sublime.

As far as changing to some heavy Locrian thing I'm not sure.
It's hard to say without hearing what you've got going on.

You might find some other key change that'll work.
Just follow your ears.If you have your heart set on some Locrian
sound then try playing in Locrian in different keys and try to piece it together somehow.It's your song so your ear has the final say.

[Rayman]

Well, the Locrian mode in the key of G starts on F#. Your 2 5 1 2 riff starting on F# looks like this:


e|---------------|
B|---------------|
G|---------------|
D|-----4---------|
A|-3---2---2---3-|
E|-2-------0---2-|


The Mixolydian mode in G starts on D, and the 2 5 1 2 riff would be:


e|---------------|
B|---------------|
G|---------------|
D|-7-------5---7-|
A|-5---5---3---5-|
E|-----3---------|


Then just use your G major scale to play over the top.

[xxjohnboy]

i really don't understand modes very well at all. say i have a progression that goes
EMaj - G Maj - AMaj - EMaj
all i know is that i can solo in G major and it sounds sweet.
if i solo in E major it sounds crap. same with A major.

i can use the pentatonic scales (it starts on an E)

E - G - A - B - D - E
but that is still in the key of G major right?

my point is this..
what is the point of having all these different names for the scales?

if i am playing in G major. even if i start my scale on A (dorian) it still has the same notes as G major. what is the difference musically? it just seems to be making things complex but i end up with the same sound anyway.

can i solo over my beginning progression using a different scale to G major? yay i can use E minor but it is the same... all i can say is wtf?? i have tried for ages to understand how the crap works. i play guiatar like a DEMON but have got no idea what the point of all these modes are...

thanks
JB

[wild_axeman]

i have a progression that goes
EMaj - G Maj - AMaj - EMaj
all i know is that i can solo in G major and it sounds sweet.
if i solo in E major it sounds crap. same with A major.

i can use the pentatonic scales (it starts on an E)

E - G - A - B - D - E
but that is still in the key of G major right?

Your chord roots follow the E minor pentatonic (E G A B D).
Using all major chords together you create a blues/rock sound
by mixing the minor third (G) and minor 7th (D) of the scale with the major third of the E chord (G#).You are mixing Major and Minor and Dominant sounds all at once.The only thing that is certain is the tonic (E).You can play E minor pentatonic (which yes, is the same as the key of G) and you can throw in the b5 (blue note) and the major 3rd (G#), no problem.

The notes of the Gmaj chord (G B D) are all in the E minor/G Major pentatonic scale.The Emaj chord ( E G# B) introduces the major third G# which is right at home in the blues where your I IV and V chords are all dominant 7th chords(you may have to monitor it's use somewhat in this case).The Amaj chord ( A C# E) introduce the major 6th (C#) which doesn't detract from the E minor pentatonic but merely adds a colorful note to it.

You might try a scale like this:
E minor pentatonic (plus added notes) :)

|0| | |3|
|0| |2|3|
|0|1|2| |
|0|1|2| |
|0|1|2| |
|0| | |3|
You don't really have to know anything except that "IT SOUNDS GOOD".
That's enough right there! :D

[xxjohnboy]

thanks for the reply wild axe man!
I checked out that satriani lesson thing and did some jammin' over the top of my B5 chord trying all the 'ians and i think i am close to having a breakthrough in understanding the point of it all.
The idea is I don't want to memorize patterns any more (i have been playing for 8 years). I wnat to have the ability to get a bit more creative when i make a song, instead of the guess and check method i use at the moment.
Why would someone say that a song is in E phrygian when they could just say it is in the key of C Major? is it because their root note is E instead of C?
Should I be treating all the modes just like the major (ionian) AND MINOR (AEOLIAN). ie different modes for different moods. ionian is major so happy. dorian and phrygian are minor so sad. Lydian and mixolydian are major and happy. and aeolian is a minor so sad and locrain is diminished so tension building?
but there is a different type of minor sadness to a dorian compared to aeolian?
is that all there is to understand or is there more??

Thanks
JB

[xxjohnboy]

... and where do melodics and harmonics fit in.
btw i just found the search button on the forum so don't go out of your way to answer. there is heaps of stuff i can sift through but you never know when you can get away with being lazy :)
thanks
JB

[wild_axeman]

Why would someone say that a song is in E phrygian when they could just say it is in the key of C Major? is it because their root note is E instead of C?
Yes.That's it!

The notes are all from the key of C major but E is the tonic instead of C !!!! :cool:

In modal chord progressions you don't have those rigid sounding cadences that you have in a major or minor key.That's what makes them so cool and different.Modes are alot more laid back sounding.They have their own sound which you can easily recognize and tap into and hear melodic ideas in that vein.Aeolian is a mode until you decide to stick a V7 before the i chord.Then you get that leading tone happening like in the major scale.But then the harmonic minor is kind of exotic sounding almost like a mode (but not quite) but more exotic.A little more rigid and less open to interpretation sound-wise than modes though.

See key based music is more confined and restrained having been tamed by centuries of harmonic exploitation and development.We expect it to sound the way it does (this is the rigidness I was referring to).Key based music is somehwat limited in it's scope because we are familiar with it's sound and expect that sound.Modes are far more newer and fresher sounding in comparison.

That can spark creativity.

That's why the blues was cool.It was a new sound prior to later modal explorations.It was a stepping stone!

Keys = heard it all before but still useful of course
Blues = all about breaking "the rules"
modes = fresh and explorational sounding

[Rayman]

Originally posted by xxjohnboy
Should I be treating all the modes just like the major (ionian) AND MINOR (AEOLIAN). ie different modes for different moods.

Yep. Spot on. Each scale has it's own distinct flavour, just like each type of chord has it's own distinct flavour.

All a scale does is pick a root note from the total palette of 12 that are available, then add as many others as are necessary to make it useful for expressing oneself musically.

For example, if you're putting together a major scale, you'd pick a root note, (say 'C'), then add the notes that are 2, 4, 5, 7, 9 and 11 semitones above it.

These 7 notes then determine which chords are available and which aren't. The differences between each of the notes and the root note (the intervals) evoke different reactions in the listener. For example if the difference between two notes is three semi-tones (a minor third), it sounds sad. If the difference is four semi-tones, it sounds happy. If it's 7 semi-tones, it's strong. If it's 5, it's uneasy, looking for resolution, and so on and so forth.

Once you have a scale, you automatically have as many modes available as you have notes in the scale. As the major scale is made up of 7 notes, there are 7 modes available. When you change from one mode to another, you're letting another note be the root note. This changes the relationships (intervals) between each of the notes and the new root note, and therefore opens up different musical avenues, evoking different reactions from the listener.

Once you're familiar with the sounds of the different scales, when someone says "My song is in the Phrygian mode", you'll have an impression of what the song will sound like before you've even heard it.

[xxjohnboy]

Thanks for your help guys!
im sure I understand it properly now.
They are just new scales that happen to be easily worked out by using the major scales and changing the root.
Harmonic and melodic scales are just another new scale that I can plonk in somewhere just like modes for a different feeling again.
Then u have all the funky egyptian scales and chinese scales etc which are exactly the same as modes (ie just aniother scale) except they dont fall under the same category because they are not worked out by changing the root note of a major scale.

have i got it sorted? i think I do.

JB

[wild_axeman]

Yeah pretty much.

Some weird and exotic scales can be harmonized and others can't.You should try anyways.If you can't harmonize them then you can play them on a droning root note.You can get alot of spacey sounds doing this.Also look for exploiting interval spacing whether wide intervals or semitones etc.Sometimes you really have to get to know some of them weirdo scales before you find a way to utilize them.

[Rayman]

There really aren't that many scales to learn, because you can't just take any bunch of seven notes, stick them together and end up with something useful.

For example - once you know the melodic minor scale, these are the other scales you have learnt without realising it.

Lydian Augmented scale - (built on third step of melodic minor scale)
Overrtone or Lydian Dominant scale - (built on fourth step)
Hindu scale - (built on 5th step)
Superlocrian or Diminished whole tone scale - (built on 7th step)

Cool, huh? So, same principle as the modes of the major scale - if you change the root note of the melodic minor scale, you'll be playing a new exotic scale without having to learn a new scale pattern. Talk about value for money.