Keys,Modes and Self Taught

[Sevred]

You probably get about 50 of these but what the hell.
Okay iv been playing guitar for about 2 years after about a year i decided to get a teacher and while he was a great guitarist he could bareley explain anything (infact the whole month he only taught me to choke pick, wich is fun so im not complaining.........oh wait........I AM!!!) however he introduced me to modes and keys and scales and then left me with them in the back of my head half explained and probably corrupted by my lack of memory. I only play guitar for fun so to me it was no big deal and since most music today is pretty lame i doubt i could enjoy being in a band. So now iv left school signed up for the army and find myself with nothing to do for a few months and i decided to learn some more metallica songs. I suppose the reason modes and stuff nether applied to me was becase i was just too plain crap to play a solo but iv started to learn a few metallica solos and it got me thinking how the hell do people write solos? Well the solution seems simple just ask a guitarist who knows right? WRONG. People seem to have a slight retardation towards this subject EVERYONE i asked said someting different or just plain simply said "learn modes". Well i figure obviously they must be right so i learned some modes. Well that was great now i can sit with my thumb up my ass and say i know modes! However that did not solve my problem, being ignorant i dont know how to use them, i went back to the guy but he couldent seem to explain how to use them just said "Learn modes" like a broken Furby (brake your sisters i guarantee 5 minutes entertainment) Well using logic (or lack of) i asked "Well how did you learn to play guitar, did you use a website or a book?" well i shouldent have asked "Oh im self taught i didnt take lessons or nothin im an asshole, i suppose some people are like that". Yes, you see, some people are assholes, they dont learn to play guitar their just sitting there hitting an open string and BAM! Suddenly felt the urge to play a Mixolydian mode in the key of D. But they didnt learn that, no my friend their self taught. Well excuse me if i dont buy this half-arsed crap obviously the guy HAD to at some point read someting wich said here is Mixolydian mode you use modes when blah blah blah.
So basically this is how i THINK it works

A key is the major chord in the different sections of a song (Im assuming by major the teacher guy ment the note witch stands out the most, or is first hit) so if this is right in Enter Sandman the first note is an open sixth string, wich i think is E so i assume that for that part of the song the Key is in E major

Now assuming we decided to play a solo or be an asshole and distract people from the other guitarst we would have to play "In Key". Now here is where things get magical and kick me in the nuts. From random crap i collected i seem to have come to this conclusion. If my formula for finding the Key of a song was correct and the key of the intro is E then i would either choose a mode or scale and find another E on the guitar and use the shape of the scale/mode from there.

Am i anywere near right? I mean it seems like it should be a simple enought thing to teach, how to find notes on a guitar was easy why the hell is it so hard to learn how to make a basic solo? Well i probably just have the luck of a mexican and have met the only retards in the world of guitar (or in a Hollywood style twist i am the retard, i should be making millions)

[Metallicka]

There's plenty of free lessons from experienced players on the net. Cyberfret itself has lots of great lessons.

[Sevred]

I KNEW IT! not even a yes your right or no your a retard. Ill just have to keep flipping through lessons and try to figure it out. Or just pile drive that guy till he tells me. Sigh.....

[Metallicka]

What exactly are you asking? You sound all confused. I think you should start again at the start and learn it all from somebody who explains it clearly. Music theory is easy if it's explained well.

Are you asking what key Enter Sandman is in? If so I'll work it out for ya coz I have the tab, most tallica songs I've looked at have been in G or C.

People don't always start on the root of the key when they play but they'll usually end on it. When they're playing single notes there isn't a key for each individual note, the key will be for the chord or scale they are from.

Your teacher sounds like one of those people who can play but can't teach. You sound like you don't know the basics yet he's trying to tell you about modes.

got to go...

[wild_axeman]

YES

YOU ARE RIGHT! (sort of)

The TONIC is "E"


NO it is NOT major though! (NOT MAJOR !!!!) :eek:

..........................................

>>>>>>> It is in "E minor"!!!!! <<<<<<< ,hehe :D

..........................................

The key signature has one sharp indicating G Major but the tonic is E
so it's in E minor.

E minor being the relative minor key of G major and sharing the same notes and key sig.

The opening riff is based on the E blues scale (E G A Bb B D)

Then the G5 and F#5 power chords come in.The F#5 introduces two new notes F# (the 9th) and C#(the 6th) which suggests E dorian.(E F# G A B C# D)

The opening riff modulates to F# minor from when James sings "sleep with one eye open" to the line "off to never never land".So the lick is just transposed around.This is a direct or abrupt type of modulation.

Then it goes back to E minor.

The solo section does the same thing starts in E minor switches/jumps to F# minor then back to E minor.It starts off with E minor pentatonic and throws in some E dorian,goes to F# and does similar.There may be some blues scale and some phrygian in there.Experiment with different minor scales/modes here in E and F# and you're on your way.


I'm self taught too so I FEEL YOUR PAIN!!!!!! ;)

[Ghost]

I'm self taught too...but I really can't read a huge paragraph like that without sentences and commas.. I know it can be very frustrating to explain something you don't understand, but I really have no clue what your asking, wish I could help.

[Sevred]

Yes you were right about my teacher not being able to teach the basics. The thing is i dont know what the basics are otherwise i woul d learn them. Ill just scrounge around, obviously im trying to start learning someting halfway through it and need to learn about Tonics and all that other stuff mentioned above.

[Metallicka]

Dude, read the cyberfret lessons they're very clear.

[wild_axeman]

Sevred wrote:

Ill just scrounge around, obviously im trying to start learning someting halfway through it and need to learn about Tonics and all that other stuff mentioned above.
Dude there's plenty of helpful posts around here and tons of archived posts too.I'm sure there's plenty of tips in there.Plus you can use the search feature and look for specific topics.You can also fine tune your search in a variety of ways.

[Malcolm]

..... I'm taking lessons again and this instructor is a great guitar player and knows nothing about how to teach.

I spent my life in adult education, that can be a curse when it comes to being taught, because I expect the instructor to teach... Oh well.

I think you feel as I do about modes - I look through them, I look beyond them. Always have. Once I know the key I can go where I need to without knowing that this is Mixolydian or Dorian.

Your knowledge of keys is a little off, so you need to slow down and take a look at some of the lessons.

The service sounds like a good idea, I know you will gain from the experience.

[StonedSandman]

go to http://musictheory.net and read up on the lessons there going in order from the first one. It'll take some time for it to sink into your brain, you may even need to reread multiple times to get it, but once it does you'll have a better idea how music "works". As far as the modes, I know very little about them other then knowing they're just a major scale starting on different degrees of the scale. But from what very little I've read on the subject is that certain modes are better suit for different styles and sounds, liek they'res one i believe that works better in jazz music and over 7th chords. Sorry if that confused you, i really don't know what i'm talking about when it comes to modes. :confused:

[hi_lighter]

hey wild axeman how do you know conclude that an by just hitting the 6th sting alone is E minor and not E major?? Shouldn't it be a E major because the string is E, or does it differ because there are two "E" notes in standard tuning?? I didn't really get your whole "key signature" explaination.

[wild_axeman]

E is the tonic so the key is E something.
The something gets filled in immediately
by the opening riff which is based on the E blues scale
which is the same as E "minor" pentatonic with an added b5th
passing note.Then the lick get transposed to F# minor (blues scale again...same riff,just moved up!)Okay and the solo plays in E "minor" pentatonic and E "minor" Dorian.Then the riff goes up to F# "minor" again and Kirk follows that by moving the minor pentatonic and Dorian up accordingly to F#.Then the riff returns to E (minor) again and Kirk follows it back to E "minor". The song is in E minor with a brief shift of the tonic up two frets to F# minor (the lick gets transposed/moved up two frets).This brief modulation allows Kirk to get alot of mileage out of the simple opening blues scale riff and provides for the backdrop for the solo."E minor",F# minor,"E minor" (underlined!! -okay? ) The "key" is "E minor"!

[hi_lighter]

ok that makes sense because the majority of the song is written with minor chords and scales. But since when is the dorian mode "minor"?? i thought the only minor mode was aeolian???

[wild_axeman]

You have the Major scale and the Minor scale (Aeolian) which is sometimes called the "Natural Minor scale".But you also have the other modes which can be Major or minor.The third determins whether any scale or chord is major or minor.


Ionian (the major scale)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B


Dorian (minor mode)
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
D E F G A B C


Phrygian (minor mode)
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
E F G A B C D


Lydian (major mode)

1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
F G A B C D E


Mixolydian (major/dominant mode)
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
G A B C D E F


Aeolian (Natural minor)
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
A B C D E F G

Locrian (minor/half diminished mode)
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
B C D E F G A

Mixolydian is dominant for two reasons:
1.it is built on the 5th degree (V)
2.it is a major scale with a minor 7th (b7)