Time signatures

[iommi]

Can someone post a good article on time signatures for the absolutely dumb who don't know what a beat is or a measure is

Can someone tell me what this means

The top number tells us how many beats there are in each bar measure. The bottom number gives us the value of each beat.

Can someone explain the above with examples

[jaytee]

hmmm ok i ll give it a shot...lol...
im not a teacher so....

first off did you read shawns article?
http://www.cyberfret.com/reading/rhythms/part-1/index.htm

ok here we go...

lets say it says

4
4

the top number tells you how many beats in a measure...you read that already...
so if there is a 4 on top...it means you have 4 beats ...i always think of a "measure" as being a certain measured period of time...i dunno if that is weird or not...but thats how i always thought of it...to me its like....if you had two seconds to play 4 notes...that two seconds is you MEASURE of time...

IF YOU HAVE *FOUR* BEATS meaning a 4 as the top number...

it could be a whole note (an empty circle) receiving all four counts (hold the note for a longer period of time..the WHOLE measure)...

it could be two half notes...(whole notes on sticks basically) they each would he held HALF the measure...

or 4 quarter notes (colored in whole notes on sticks) each held one QUARTER of the measure....

you get the picture...these are just some possibilities...oh...and

if you have a half note with a dot...you get your two counts plus 1/2 of it again (one more) to equal 3 counts for a dotted half note...so you could have a dotted half note and a quarter note in the same measure..but they add up to the number 4 which is your top number...


IF THE BOTTOM NUMBER IS ALSO A *FOUR*...this means it is a quarter note which gets one beat...
if it were a 2 then a half note would get a full count...you see?

in shawns example he shows

3
4

meaning there are 3 beats in each measure and one beat is assigned to a quarter note...
so like if you had a dotted half note....and you knew a quarter note got 1 beat...a half note (being twice a quarter) note gets 2 beats and a dotted half gets 2+1 which equals 3....and 3 is all you can fit in one measure in 3-4 time! so in 3-4 time the largest you can have is a dotted half note....a whole note would take up more than one measure! (this is why sometimes you see notes in the middle of the measure instead of the beginning..because there is a portion of a note still being held from the measure before...like a whole note in a piece that is in 3-4 time..a beat lags over even tho you didnt hit the string again...but you dont let go of that note)

4
4
means 4 beats in a measure each assigned to a quarter note...


i know this confuses matters...and it would be better for you if you really want to read sheet music to look for songs in 4-4 time...it is the easiest to read...
BUT...for myself (because i want to read sheet music to play too) i found out that you are better off learning tab first...then sheet music second...because trying to learn to play guitar and read sheet music at the same time just frustrates you...even if you learn what everything means as far as sheet music notation is concerned...its still another matter altogether to produce the sounds the author intends...tab is much easier to get yourself started actually producing a sound...much more gratifying much sooner....

hope i helped a little....

--jt

ps there are also such things as 8th notes , 16th notes...etc but i thought this would make things worse to go that far...


ummm...hey shawn...tell me how bad i botched it....

:rolleyes:

[iommi]

Hmm, i kinda of understand.Thanks for replying.I did some research myself.

Is it like if i have a 3/4 time signature i have 3 beats in each measure and i have 3 more such measures

If i just do it using quarter notes i will have to strum 12 times, and using dotted half notes just four times, right??

[iommi]

Please ignore my last post.It is absolute nonsense.This is what i want to confirm

The bottom number establishes a rhythm(quarter,.....eigth,....) as one beat.If i am to play a song in 4/8 it establishes a eigth note as one beat and hence a quarter note would be two beats and so on,i believe.

Hence if i were to play a chord in 4/8 in terms of quarter notes,i would be playing them only twice but would hold them for twice as long as i would do in 4/4.Am i right??

Also,in chords strumming,Shawn shows 1 & 2 & , i believe he's doing 2/4 .I think the & comes into play only when the bottom number is 4 .Am i right??

[jaytee]

"Hence if i were to play a chord in 4/8 in terms of quarter notes,i would be playing them only twice but would hold them for twice as long as i would do in 4/4.Am i right?? "

this part confuses me..im not sure what you are trying to say....
you mean 2 quarter notes? what we really need to ask shawn i think is....if a "beat" is assigned to an 8th note...does that beat last half as long as it would if were assigned to a quarter note? to me that would make sense....but..like i said...im not a teacher...this is something id like to know too...hmmmmmm

i think you started off ok tho...
i havent read shawns thing on strumming ....i prolly should..i know...hehe....when i got a chance to read it ill see if i know what you mean....

--jt

[bobcat]

Please allow me to add to your confusion! And maybe answer a question or two along the way! :)

We need to look at 4/4 time and 4/8 time as two completely separate beasts. With 4/4 time, there are four beats (counts) to a measure and the quarter note gets one beat (count). With 4/8 time, there are 4 beats (counts) to a measure and the eighth note gets one beat (count).

A basic measure of 4/4 time would contain four quarter notes. These four notes would be counted 1-2-3-4. A basic measure of 4/8 time would contain four eighth notes and would be counted 1-2-3-4. Are ya with me so far? Both are counted the exact same. However, in 4/4 time it is the quarter note that is getting one count, and in 4/8 time it is the eighth note that is getting one count.

What looks like it is causing your confusion at this point is a thing called tempo. That is how fast or how slow a piece of music is being played. You could have a piece of music in 4/4 time that is played either very fast or very slow. The same is true with 4/8 time. There isn't a "set amount" of time that a quarter note or an eighth note will always get, it depends upon the speed (tempo) of the song.

But before you ask, yes, a quarter note does equal two eighth notes. If you were playing a song that is in 4/4 time and it was written quarter, eighth, eighth, quarter, quarter. You would count this 1-2and-3-4. The space of time allowed for the two eighth notes is equal to that of one quarter note. Again, you could count this at a very fast tempo, or a very slow tempo. What ever speed that you count these, the beats (counts) must stay proportional.

Unfortunately, when you start to get into time signatures with the "8" on the bottom, things start to get messy! Now, the eighth note is getting one beat. Well, we know it takes two eighth notes to equal one quarter note... So suddenly that quarter note is going to equal two counts! (I told you it was gonna get messy!) So, in 4/8 time the rhythm of eighth, eighth, quarter would be counted 1-2-(34). Each of the eighth notes would get one count and the quarter note would suddenly get two counts.

My best advice is to (in the beginning counting stages) forget time signatures that have an "8" in the bottom and get to where you are very comfortable with the ones that have a "4" in the bottom first. There is a great deal to think about when learning to count. Learn the basics first and then move on to the more complex.

Suppose you were in 4/4 time and you had two measures of (quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter), (quarter, quarter, half). To count this would be (1-2-3-4)(1-2-(34)) or, (Ma-ry had a) (lit-tle lamb) with "lamb" being held two counts. This exact same tune could be written in 4/8 time as (eighth, eighth, eighth, eighth)(eighth, eighth, quarter). Both ways would sound the exact same. Both would be counted the exact same. Both could be played at the same speed. It is just a difference of how they look written on paper and which note gets one count or two counts.

Hope this helps more that it confuses!:p

[cyberfret]

iommi....what you really need to do is go through some sort of basic reading method. Something that will teach you the basics of music. There is one here on Cyberfret.com, or you can buy a basic book. Even though most people scream and kick and say that they do not want to learn to read standard notation, that is where you are going to learn all of the fundamentals......measures, rhythms, note names, etc. This is your foundation. If you don't understand these basics, then you are dead in the water. You may be able to get these basics without going through a method like this, but that is certainly the long way to go, especially if you have never had any other music training....... like playing an instrument in school.

If you were taking private lessons from me, that is where you would start. I would teach you songs, chords, strums etc. But you would learn to read standard notation on a basic level, for the very reasons that you are confused now. If you have never read music, then it is hard to understand what a measure is, or what the beat is, or what exactly a time signature is. But if you have the foundation of a basic reading method book, then you have the foundation to build on.

Here is the reading method here at Cyberfret.com. Start with the primer, and work your way through the Standard notation version of the method.
http://www.cyberfret.com/reading/index.htm

Also try these books. They do not teach how to play Rock. They teach the basics of music through reading standard notation. Even if you never read standard notation again after you finish the book, the point is to learn the basic elements of music and basics of guitar that you will carry with you and give you a good solid foundation to build on.

Guitar Method 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898987296/cyberfcomonlinec) - by Aaron Stang

Guitar Theory 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089898730X/cyberfcomonlinec) - by Sandy Feldstein and Aaron Stang

There are other basic books as well. Go to your local library. The library in my area has many guitar methods.

--Shawn