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  #1  
Old 01-08-2009, 08:07 PM
yyyk's Avatar
yyyk yyyk is offline
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Same old solos

Alright, so, I know all my major and minor pentatonics in all the positions, and that's usually what i solo with. my stuff sounds okay, but i'm really starting to get bored with playing the same sounds over and over again. I also know the major scale, and the natural minor, but i'm not really good at soloing with them yet. To improve, should I just keep practicing improv with the major or natural minor scales? or should i be trying to learn something different, and what?
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  #2  
Old 01-08-2009, 09:00 PM
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Malcolm Malcolm is offline
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Melody has to enter the picture sometime.


http://www.guitarnoise.com/lesson/pu...ings-together/

This may point you to something you can use.
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  #3  
Old 07-24-2009, 09:02 PM
gagibson gagibson is offline
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I believe you need to find some solos that you like the sound and direction of, and transcribe them. From there you can draw inspiration from the solos you already know
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  #4  
Old 07-26-2009, 02:39 PM
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wild_axeman wild_axeman is offline
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Mode chord pentatonic relationships -or- Modes from pentatonics

Major scale patterns and modes from the pentatonics you already know:

Try I-IV-V chords plus their respective I-IV-V pentatonics or modes.
And then know their respective relative minor chords vi-ii-iii and their respective vi-ii-iii minor pentatonics and modes.The vi-ii-iii would also be considered the minor i-iv-v from the perspective of minor. But it's easiest to just remember the I-IV-V chords and their relative minors.
*Important tip:The relative minor scales will work over their relative MAJOR chords, and vice-versa. This gives you choices in fingering options. And it's an important part of where I am going with this post.

For the Imaj chord try the Imaj pentatonic, and try the Imaj Ionian mode. The relative minor chord is the vi chord, and that is associated with the vi minor pentatonic, and with the vi natural minor or aeolian mode. So try those.

For the IVmaj chord try the IVmaj pentatonic, and try the IVmaj Lydian mode.The relative minor chord is the ii chord, and it is associated with the ii minor pentatonic, and with the ii minor Dorian mode. So try those.

For the Vmaj chord try the Vmaj pentatonic, and try the Vmaj Mixolydian mode. The relative minor chord is the iii minor chord, and it is associated with the iii minor pentatonic,and with the iii minor Phrygian mode. So try those.

Any of the mode patterns derived from the major scale in this way will work over any of chords built or derived from the major scale, and in any of the modes as well, if you are playing modally. It's all the same scale, so it'll all work. But to actually go modal and get the modal sounds you will need to treat each mode as it's own separate key or entity, and treat the associated chord built on the mode's root as the one-chord of that mode. Major modes all have their own Imaj chord and minor modes all have their own i minor chord. So for example the IV chord is associated with Lydian, so therefore if I want a Lydian sound then we would no longer want to consider that chord as chord IV of Ionian, but rather as chord I of Lydian.

Hopefully this will easilly allow you to take the pentatonics you already know and then "fill in" the missing two notes from the major scale to complete each major scale pattern (or mode pattern if going for modality or "modes as their own keys.") Modes have to be treated as their own scale or key, otherwise you won't adequately convey their unique sound or mood.

After that look into the CAGED system.
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In improvising within a modal context, a musician would basically start by thinking about playing the notes within that specific mode (e.g., D Dorian: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D). - wikipedia "modal jazz" article
-
"In its most conventional sense, tonality refers to just the major and minor scale types - scales whose elements are capable of maintaining a consistent set of functional relationships." - A. Milne
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  #5  
Old 06-26-2010, 09:59 AM
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MadMattUK MadMattUK is offline
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When i was first learning to solo/'improvise' like most i learned the minor pentatonic scale.

But what really opened the door to new sounds was learning the modes of the major scale (and their associated sound/feel). Each mode when used with the right chords has its own distinct sound. So by learning your modes your opening up yourself to 7 different new sounds. But the best thing is for a given key, its the same 7 notes. Therefore when it comes to the mechanics of the guitar things like scale shapes etc. are easy to learn.

From there the next step that opened up even further passages of play, was thinking in terms of chord tones. This is useful when playing over chord progressions which may progress outside of their usual key/ or diatonic structure. For example when playing over a C major chord, you know the notes C,E,G are going to be suitable. From there you can add further notes to spice up the melody.

I believe it was wild_axeman who used the analogy that the chord tones should form the body of your melody, and any additional notes are like jewellery, adding a bit of class to your solo. But beware too much jewellery becomes tacky.

From a rock perspective Marty Friedman has got a great video from the early 90s called Melodic Control. He talks about using the key chord tones to form the body of your solo, then adding additional notes to add more flavour.

Heres the full video here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...2536751428345#

Relevant whether you play rock/jazz or pop.
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  #6  
Old 06-26-2010, 11:17 AM
Malcolm's Avatar
Malcolm Malcolm is offline
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Modes will get this old forum going. Modes are always good for 15 to 20 posts.
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  #7  
Old 07-01-2010, 07:19 AM
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bonsy bonsy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
Modes will get this old forum going. Modes are always good for 15 to 20 posts.
Rock n Roll Malcolm!!
Ok Seriously, Modes it is.
Ive asked lots of questions about modes in the past and still cant explain what i know or think i know to anyone else.I know the names and the formulas and i use the formulas to help me memorise the major scale formulas.
I would like to know What are the most comon modes? Including Ionain,Aeolian.Also If someone want to play a Dorian Mode,they will say play a vamp to bring out the sound of the Dorian Mode!. But if you are playing in Major ie Ionian or Minor Aeolian then you are playing in Major or minor regardless of a Vamp?
So what makes a chord progression sound Ionian Mode and what makes a chord progression sound Aeolian mode?IF we dont use a vamp! is it just happy or sad. Cheers
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  #8  
Old 08-27-2010, 11:35 PM
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wild_axeman wild_axeman is offline
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Cyberfret's lessons always do the trick here...

You have to know the characteristic note of each mode
in order to understand how to establish the specific sound
of each mode.

Characteristic notes
http://www.cyberfret.com/theory/modes/101/page7.php

Establishing the sound of a mode
http://www.cyberfret.com/theory/modes/101/page8.php

================
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In improvising within a modal context, a musician would basically start by thinking about playing the notes within that specific mode (e.g., D Dorian: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D). - wikipedia "modal jazz" article
-
"In its most conventional sense, tonality refers to just the major and minor scale types - scales whose elements are capable of maintaining a consistent set of functional relationships." - A. Milne
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  #9  
Old 08-28-2010, 01:29 AM
wild_axeman's Avatar
wild_axeman wild_axeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyyk View Post
Alright, so, I know all my major and minor pentatonics in all the positions, and that's usually what i solo with. my stuff sounds okay, but i'm really starting to get bored with playing the same sounds over and over again. I also know the major scale, and the natural minor, but i'm not really good at soloing with them yet. To improve, should I just keep practicing improv with the major or natural minor scales? or should i be trying to learn something different, and what?

Take the A minor pentatonic scale you already know:
Code:
A minor pentatonic

|--A--|-----|-----|--C--| 
|--E--|-----|-----|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|
   |
5th fret
^ That also doubles as C Major pentatonic:

Code:
C Major pentatonic

|--A--|-----|-----|--C--| 
|--E--|-----|-----|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|
                     |
                  8th fret
Now we'll turn the A minor pentatonic into A Aeolian
and the C Major pentatonic into C Ionian by adding the
notes B and F:

Code:
A Aeolian

|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--| 
|-----|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|-----|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|
|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
         |
      5th fret


C Ionian

|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--| 
|-----|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|-----|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|
|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
                           |
                        8th fret
Now we are going to go to the D minor pentatonic at the 10th fret
and we're gonna do the same thing there by adding the two missing
notes that will give us a pattern for D Dorian and F Lydian.

Code:
D minor pentatonic

|--D--|-----|-----|--F--| 
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|
|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|-----|--F--|
   |
10th fret

D Dorian

|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--| 
|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|
|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|-----|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|
         |
      10th fret                        

F Lydian

|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--| 
|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|
|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|-----|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|
                           |
                        13th fret
And now we are going to do the same thing with
the E minor pentatonic at the 12th fret to get
E Phrygian and G Mixolydian.

Code:
E minor pentatonic

|--E--|-----|-----|--G--| 
|--B--|-----|-----|--D--|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|
|--E--|-----|-----|--G--|
   |
12th fret

E Phrygian

|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--| 
|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
   |
12th fret

G Mixolydian

|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--| 
|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
                     |
                    15th fret

Okay so the formula for Major Pentatonic is 1,2,3,5,6
and the formula for minor pentatonic is 1,b3,4,5,b7.

So for minor modes you would have all of the chord tones (1,b3,5,b7)
within the minor pentatonic. So sticking close to the chord tones is as
simple as playing the minor pentatonic licks you know and love. Then
if you are getting tired of those and running out of ideas then go for the full
mode. And that works in the reverse as well. If you are getting tired of
trying to come up with stuff in the mode, then you can revert back to
pentatonic licks. The idea is to mix it up.

The Major Pentatonic has the 1,3,5 chord tones, but not the 7.
So Pentatonic is still gonna help you to stick pretty close to the
chord tones. Just sprinkle in the modal notes to change the sound
every once in awhile to break out of the pentatonic boredom.

Too much of anything probably isn't gonna sound good so you've
got to mix things up. For instance it's easy to bend strings too often.

Sometimes you just want to walk slowly. Simple things "can" sound
better.Fast stuff usually sounds more impressive if you play something
slower first. Slower walking types of ideas are usually a little more
meaningful since you probably took more time hearing them as melody
and less time thinking of them as fast technical tricks.

It's important to play off of contrast...fast/slow...chords/single notes,etc.

>

For starters you could even just try adding the modal notes
on just the highest two strings only. That way you're still pretty
much in the pentatonic but you can begin to experiment with
the two extra notes:


A Aeolian or C Ionian

|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|
.....|
5th fret

D Dorian or F Lydian

|--D--|-----|--E--|--F--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--|
|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|-----|--F--|
.....|
10th fret

E Phrygian or G Mixolydian

|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|
|--E--|-----|-----|--G--|
.....|
12th fret
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In improvising within a modal context, a musician would basically start by thinking about playing the notes within that specific mode (e.g., D Dorian: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D). - wikipedia "modal jazz" article
-
"In its most conventional sense, tonality refers to just the major and minor scale types - scales whose elements are capable of maintaining a consistent set of functional relationships." - A. Milne

Last edited by wild_axeman; 08-28-2010 at 04:56 AM.
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  #10  
Old 08-28-2010, 03:22 AM
wild_axeman's Avatar
wild_axeman wild_axeman is offline
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Now let's try that same thing for all of the modes in A.
Just adding the mode notes to the top two strings
of the pentatonic again for all of the modes from an A root:


Code:
A Lydian

|--F#-|-----|--G#-|--A--| 
|--C#-|-----|--D#-|--E--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|
|--E--|-----|--F#-|-----|
|--B--|-----|--C#-|-----|
|--F#-|-----|-----|--A--|
   |
2nd fret


Code:
A Ionian

|--F#-|-----|--G#-|--A--| 
|--C#-|--D--|-----|--E--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|
|--E--|-----|--F#-|-----|
|--B--|-----|--C#-|-----|
|--F#-|-----|-----|--A--|
   |
2nd fret



Code:
A Mixolydian

|--F#-|--G--|-----|--A--| 
|--C#-|--D--|-----|--E--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|
|--E--|-----|--F#-|-----|
|--B--|-----|--C#-|-----|
|--F#-|-----|-----|--A--|
   |
2nd fret

Code:
A Dorian

|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--| 
|--E--|-----|--F#-|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|

   |
5th fret

Code:
A Aeolian

|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--| 
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|
   |
5th fret

Code:
A Phrygian

|--A--|--Bb-|-----|--C--| 
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|
   |
5th fret

Code:
A Locrian

|--C--|-----|--D--|--Eb-| 
|--G--|-----|--A--|--Bb-|
|--Eb-|-----|--F--|-----|
|--Bb-|-----|--C--|-----|
|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|
|--C--|-----|-----|--Eb-|
   |
8th fret
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In improvising within a modal context, a musician would basically start by thinking about playing the notes within that specific mode (e.g., D Dorian: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D). - wikipedia "modal jazz" article
-
"In its most conventional sense, tonality refers to just the major and minor scale types - scales whose elements are capable of maintaining a consistent set of functional relationships." - A. Milne
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  #11  
Old 09-06-2010, 11:40 AM
bonsy's Avatar
bonsy bonsy is offline
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Posts: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_axeman View Post
Now let's try that same thing for all of the modes in A.
Just adding the mode notes to the top two strings
of the pentatonic again for all of the modes from an A root:


Code:
A Lydian

|--F#-|-----|--G#-|--A--| 
|--C#-|-----|--D#-|--E--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|
|--E--|-----|--F#-|-----|
|--B--|-----|--C#-|-----|
|--F#-|-----|-----|--A--|
   |
2nd fret


Code:
A Ionian

|--F#-|-----|--G#-|--A--| 
|--C#-|--D--|-----|--E--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|
|--E--|-----|--F#-|-----|
|--B--|-----|--C#-|-----|
|--F#-|-----|-----|--A--|
   |
2nd fret



Code:
A Mixolydian

|--F#-|--G--|-----|--A--| 
|--C#-|--D--|-----|--E--|
|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|
|--E--|-----|--F#-|-----|
|--B--|-----|--C#-|-----|
|--F#-|-----|-----|--A--|
   |
2nd fret

Code:
A Dorian

|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--| 
|--E--|-----|--F#-|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|

   |
5th fret

Code:
A Aeolian

|--A--|-----|--B--|--C--| 
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|
   |
5th fret

Code:
A Phrygian

|--A--|--Bb-|-----|--C--| 
|--E--|--F--|-----|--G--|
|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|
|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|
|--A--|-----|-----|--C--|
   |
5th fret

Code:
A Locrian

|--C--|-----|--D--|--Eb-| 
|--G--|-----|--A--|--Bb-|
|--Eb-|-----|--F--|-----|
|--Bb-|-----|--C--|-----|
|--F--|-----|--G--|-----|
|--C--|-----|-----|--Eb-|
   |
8th fret
This has been very useful for me,ie associating the modes and pentatonic shapes. Thank you for this!
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2010, 06:55 AM
wild_axeman's Avatar
wild_axeman wild_axeman is offline
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Cool, I'm glad you found it helpful.
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KEEP ON TRUCKIN'.....

In improvising within a modal context, a musician would basically start by thinking about playing the notes within that specific mode (e.g., D Dorian: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D). - wikipedia "modal jazz" article
-
"In its most conventional sense, tonality refers to just the major and minor scale types - scales whose elements are capable of maintaining a consistent set of functional relationships." - A. Milne
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